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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri May 26, 2017 10:25 pm

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Dauntless wrote:
cthia wrote:The included passage posted about Stephanie Harrington confuses me. Being from Sphinx, are her parents concerned with other Sphinxians or off-worlders in her reference to strangers? Certainly all of the planet itself are genies. Some just opted for different "accessories?"
saber964 wrote:Stephanie emigrated to sphinx (or rather her parents did, and took her along, when she was about 8), she was not born there.



What the Harrington's are worried about is the prejudices that still exists at the time. Remember Earth is still recovering from the Final War four hundred plus years after it ended. In Stephanie Harrington time calling someone a genie was a very vulgar epithet but by the time of Honor Harrington it's considered mild profanity.

Some very important missing data in my understanding has been supplied by Dauntless, whom I thank. But there still exists somewhat a disconnect.

Ok. So after the Final Wars everyone jets for the stars to escape the horrors of it all. All manner of inhospitable planets are settled and mankind, being as resourceful as it is and bearing the innate will to survive finds a way through genetic modification; adapt and overcome. Mankind is fortunate, or lucky, to have beat the odds. Yet pretty much everyone beat the odds by playing the same game - genetic manipulation. Who is any better than any other? Or who should be less fortunate than any other, because the advancement of genetic modification is like Shangri La to everyone? Native born Sphinxians bearing prejudicial hatred against Meyerdahl genies are like the pot calling the kettle black. I'm still sporting a major disconnect.

This is a beast of a personal disconnect. And the best dinosaur DNA I can use to fill in my missing blanks, using the supplied passage of Stephanie's thoughts, is that the anti-genie movement, akin to Hitler's anti-Jewish movement, is the source of the perpetuation of the fear. I am guessing that the movement had its base on Sol and not the settled stars that bear witness to all manner of mods. Which again I find it a bit odd that Stephanie's parents fear of being "rejected" because they are genies, by native Sphinxians who themselves are genies.

Of course, the element of fear exists, and also a fair bit of hypocrisy. Mankind is running away from the horrors created by genetic manipulation only to find that the source of those horrors would be the instrument of their survival. Reminds me of Grayson and their fits with technology.

I cannot see Sphinx proper, housing any anti-genie movements or using "genie" in a vulgar manner or anything other than positive.

Perhaps the real fear stemmed from incomplete understanding of genetic manipulation at the time and the lack of knowledge of everyone's particular mod. Which would result in apprehension regarding who is "safe" and who is not. IOW, everyone who are not "us" are the equivalent to unsafe genetic modification which could kill us all as did many in the Final Wars. Unsafe gene mods could be like "the plague." See Malign mods. Which would be akin to Hitler's preoccupation with pure blood.

'sigh'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by kzt   » Fri May 26, 2017 10:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Ok. So after the Final Wars everyone jets for the stars to escape the horrors of it all.

No, if you were on earth at that time then you are probably dead. It was extremely destructive. And apparently wasn't a long-drawn out process The planets were settled before the war and then survivors on earth were rescued and resettled and a centuries long process of decontaminating and reclaiming earth started.

It is deeply embedded in the culture.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Theemile   » Fri May 26, 2017 11:53 pm

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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:Ok. So after the Final Wars everyone jets for the stars to escape the horrors of it all.

No, if you were on earth at that time then you are probably dead. It was extremely destructive. And apparently wasn't a long-drawn out process The planets were settled before the war and then survivors on earth were rescued and resettled and a centuries long process of decontaminating and reclaiming earth started.

It is deeply embedded in the culture.


Yeah, the Final Wars happened around 900 years after the diaspora began, and lasted ~50 years iirc. So hundreds of worlds had been settled, some with their own culture made from centuries of isolation. And thousands of more colonial expeditions were swanning through the void, only to find out about the horrors they avoided once they arrived at their new homes.

After the wars ground to a halt through global exhaustion with 90+% of the population dead, Beowulf led some of the daughter colonies back to Earth to pick up the pieces, a process which, as KZT said, lasted centuries. Many worlds probably took in refugees and helped deal with their issues, spreading first had accounts of the horrors of a world torn asunder by super soldiers and countless bacteriological, viral, radiological and chemical weapons.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by kzt   » Sat May 27, 2017 12:22 am

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I find it extremely difficult to believe a war on a single highly populated industrialized planet using full spectrum WMDs would last 150 years. I find it hard to believe it would last 2 years. You are talking about engineered viruses that spread like measles (R = 15) and kill like rabies (Lethal >99.9%) combined with gigaton range nukes and KEWs, all of this after cyber weapons and EMP strikes have taken down modern civilization.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Theemile   » Sat May 27, 2017 1:04 am

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kzt wrote:I find it extremely difficult to believe a war on a single highly populated industrialized planet using full spectrum WMDs would last 150 years. I find it hard to believe it would last 2 years. You are talking about engineered viruses that spread like measles (R = 15) and kill like rabies (Lethal >99.9%) combined with gigaton range nukes and KEWs, all of this after cyber weapons and EMP strikes have taken down modern civilization.

I had my timeline wrong, it was less than 50 years.there were "firebreaks" designed in with vaccines for the friendly population. Unfortunately, the viruses mutated over time, then came back to bite their creators.

Don't forget, the first stage of the war was the use of Supersoldiers, which spiraled out if control, and then ended when the viruses and bacteria made it to Luna and Mars, and many other of the stations in the Sol system. Those effects may have taken time.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Dauntless   » Sat May 27, 2017 7:37 am

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[quote="cthia]I cannot see Sphinx proper, housing any anti-genie movements or using "genie" in a vulgar manner or anything other than positive.[/quote]

probably not but in stephanie Harringtons day there was a large part of the population that was just completely base line human.

Sphinx is heavier then many worlds in the honnorverse but it is not so bad that an unadapted human cannot live there without technical help (i.e. grav plates). it is simply harder for them then it is for someone like Stephanie or Honor. take Stephanie's neighbour Karl Zivonik (i think that is the spelling). His family have been on sphinx since it was first settled and are shorter then stockier then the "genies" like Stephanie (well ok more like honor. Stephanie was never very tall even when she reached her adult height) due to having gained their tolerance for the Gs via human stubbornesss and natural adaptation rather then gene mods.

we have no reference to any "modern" people like this and the whole topic outside of the slaves has very much disappeared. I'm not sure there has been any comment about the extra calories honor needs per day since her time in Tepes brig.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Sun May 28, 2017 6:06 am

cthia
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Thanks to all who submitted knowledge to my lack of understanding about the prejudices held toward genies. I think my disconnect has been bridged. Pointing out the history of the Final Wars was instrumental in bridging that gap.

It is obvious that I must effect a reread of the entire series. Which I haven't even formally done at least once and I'm saving enjoyment of such a momentous occasion until affect I've consumed the final book -- at which point there would be nothing left to look forward to in the series except reruns. I suppose that this forum will even cease.

This fingers why I am both happy and jealous for roseandheather who is in the midst of a reread. Bless her little ole heart.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by saber964   » Sun May 28, 2017 12:29 pm

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kzt wrote:I find it extremely difficult to believe a war on a single highly populated industrialized planet using full spectrum WMDs would last 150 years. I find it hard to believe it would last 2 years. You are talking about engineered viruses that spread like measles (R = 15) and kill like rabies (Lethal >99.9%) combined with gigaton range nukes and KEWs, all of this after cyber weapons and EMP strikes have taken down modern civilization.


The Final War probably ran hot and cold for decades. Look at the Cold War it ran the same way (probably) as I suspect. It ran from 1947 to 1992 punctuated by low and high level conflicts and diplomatic sparring.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Sun May 28, 2017 1:07 pm

cthia
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Dauntless wrote:
cthia wrote:I cannot see Sphinx proper, housing any anti-genie movements or using "genie" in a vulgar manner or anything other than positive.


probably not but in stephanie Harringtons day there was a large part of the population that was just completely base line human.

Sphinx is heavier then many worlds in the honnorverse but it is not so bad that an unadapted human cannot live there without technical help (i.e. grav plates). it is simply harder for them then it is for someone like Stephanie or Honor. take Stephanie's neighbour Karl Zivonik (i think that is the spelling). His family have been on sphinx since it was first settled and are shorter then stockier then the "genies" like Stephanie (well ok more like honor. Stephanie was never very tall even when she reached her adult height) due to having gained their tolerance for the Gs via human stubbornesss and natural adaptation rather then gene mods.

we have no reference to any "modern" people like this and the whole topic outside of the slaves has very much disappeared. I'm not sure there has been any comment about the extra calories honor needs per day since her time in Tepes brig.

Is there any textev supporting this? I don't doubt that there is, it just floors me. After all, the appropriate passage regarding Stephanie Harrington did use the term "pure strainers."

It is difficult to believe that most of the planet were normal humans. That would include infants, children, frail and sickly adults, the general sickly as well. Difficult to fathom. You cannot install grav plates everywhere unless you erect entire walled cities completely contained like Grayson's cities.

Under the dome.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by kzt   » Sun May 28, 2017 2:06 pm

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saber964 wrote:The Final War probably ran hot and cold for decades. Look at the Cold War it ran the same way (probably) as I suspect. It ran from 1947 to 1992 punctuated by low and high level conflicts and diplomatic sparring.

Yeah, I remember well the 3 times we turned the capital of the USSR into a 50 KM wide glass bowl. And they said "curses, foiled again" and went on with next 5 year plan.
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