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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by kzt   » Wed May 24, 2017 5:36 pm

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People are adpated to 1.0 g by millions of years of evolution.

And if you need to bug out you get in your car and tell it to fly a few thousand miles to wherever you need to be.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by saber964   » Thu May 25, 2017 7:12 pm

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IIRC the scientists of the Whittaker expedition and Dr. Hobbard used counter-grav because they were only going to be on planet for a relatively short time frame. The Whittaker expedition would only be on planet for one to possibly as long as three years. Remember in SK3 W Ex members moved temporarily to Manticore because of the gravity difference. To understand what the Whittaker expedition is going through try this walk around with an additional 35 % added to your body weight. It would be the equivalent of walking around with a child on your back. If you weigh 100 pounds add another 35 pounds and walk around all day or 150 lbs add 47.5 lbs or 200 lbs add 70 lbs. How many parents have walked around with your kid(s) in a backpack carrier all day. You could probably do it for two to three hours but by the end of that time you'd want nothing more than a hot bath or shower and a bucket of your favorite pain killer.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Thu May 25, 2017 10:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:ISTR this fact as well. Though I consider it a bit odd, most likely from my lack of a personal understanding (or missed textev).

Why would someone's characterization as a genie be something to hide? It is as if they are ashamed of it, or rather that there is prejudice, or non-acceptance, against it. Why must it be kept a secret? ISTR that Beth keeps her gene recipe a secret as well. Why? It isn't as if genies are rare and misunderstood -- or that there are many designations (MA) that are unaccepted or fraught with controversy.

Slave lines withstanding my inability to understand preferred secrecy.


Up until the 80's there were places in the US where, if someone found out you had a smidge of African-American heritage, you would be fired from your job and ostracized, even if you otherwise looked white. In the 50's, such behavior was prevalent across the country. Of course, how African Americans were (and still are to lesser degrees) treated was deplorable for a modern, advanced society.

Anti Jewish behavior, which we all know rose to insane heights in Europe the 1940s, has persisted for centuries; one could say it was persisted for at least 1700 years.

So who is to say what irrational prejudices exist 2000 years from now. Nightmares of genetically modified super-soldiers sterilizing Earth could persist as long as the anti-Jewish sentiment has persisted in western civilization. Add in the disgust at the genetic slave trade, and the fear could persist for 1200 years.
robert1132 wrote:Well put. Prejudices exist, often without rational thought or reasoning.

What we today might consider odd or silly might have earned one a guest spot at a lynching or burning at the stake 200 or 400 years ago.

I suspect mankind, no matter how technologically or socially advanced, is still going to have new batches of illogical prejudices or bigotry to deal with or understand.

In some ways our brains are wired to "prejudge" people or situations as a survival trait. "Something doesn't 'feel' right about him or her," so it takes effort for that person to earn our trust.

Conversely those "feelings" might cause us to "like" someone the instant we meet or feel an attraction to that person, not necessarily physically either if of the opposite sex.

RFC's Treecats might consider it a human manner of "tasting that person's 'mindglow'" even though humans are "mindblind." (Damn it, I wish I had had a treecat partner in my prior life as a security manager.) ;)

This is a topic we can easily move to Free-Range and discuss for years. I must point out something I'm sure we're all aware of. There is a difference between prejudice and racism. I certainly agree that prejudices will always exist. Even in the Honorverse.

After the Final Wars I am gobsmacked that racism exists, after the ultimate struggle for life itself. Or does it? Having a problem with one's gene mods is not true racism is it? No more than characterizing the hatred for the color of someone's skin racism. It is not the color of the skin that people hate. It is what they have erroneously been taught to associate with that color, what people hate. Most racists cannot logically validate their racism in a formal setting. That is not to say that racists do not ultimately hate a particular group even if their own personal reasoning or lack thereof is in error. I suppose it seems to me to be a bit hard to accept, or sad, that so far into the future one's prejudices or racism isn't at least "understood."

In the Honorverse, should enmity for someone's gene mods be characterized as racism or prejudice? Everyone knows that racism is fueled by fear and ignorance. Certainly the gene mods of the MAlign are characterized by fear. Most likely the MAlign would characterize it as ignorance.


I can't quite put a finger on what's nagging me. In the Honorverse, if there were only one race, let's say Caucasians for sake of argument. If all manner of gene mods are applied to this one race alone and then there are those who do not accept one particular group because of certain gene mods then that would denote prejudice; it certainly could not be considered racism in the truest sense. If the Andermani were settled in all normal gravity planets and had no need for gene mods then certainly they might have an understandable aversion to any who do.

The included passage posted about Stephanie Harrington confuses me. Being from Sphinx, are her parents concerned with other Sphinxians or off-worlders in her reference to strangers? Certainly all of the planet itself are genies. Some just opted for different "accessories?"

Beth's worry confuses me the most. She is the Queen of Manticore. She sets the stage for what is accepted. Actually, I always thought that Beth's concern and secrecy was more from worry about someone "cooking up" something to target the Winton genome.

To continue, if there is a planet of Germans, let's say the Andermani, if different families acquired different gene mods how could prejudice or racism stem from that? I'm certainly not claiming that either couldn't, or wouldn't happen. Simply that it seems that groups with various gene mods should only be considered as having effected different "implants."




Difference Between Prejudice and Racism

Prejudices and Racism are two different terms between which a number of differences can be identified. These two words are mostly confused with each other by many people. In the world today, there exists a lot of prejudice and hatred among people. Prejudice can be understood as an opinion of another individual that holds no logic or reasoning. Racism, on the other hand, refers to discrimination of races, considering some as superior to others. This highlights that Prejudice and Racism cannot be considered as the same, even though there is a link between the two. This article attempts to highlight the differences between the two terms, by providing an understanding of both terms.

What is Prejudice?
Prejudice is a judgment formed by a person irrespective of getting the knowledge of the truth and facts. Prejudice is a negative factor in our society which resides for a very long time. Bringing people together was a target in the past. However, factors such as discrimination and prejudice are tearing people apart, and people avoid or end a number of relationships only because they support prejudice. Prejudice serves as a factor of integration that is acquired by a person by negative emotions that include hating someone or fearing someone.

Prejudice is a phenomenon seen in various different conditions. Prejudice might sometimes lead to such negative issues that might result in the destruction and chaos all over the world. The phenomenon of Prejudice is being kept in minds of people both at small and large scales. The word is mostly used talk about a premature judgment about some person or group based on religion, profession or any other feature associated with that person or group.

Prejudice can be an opinion of a human mind which is not affecting some human being in any way. Prejudice is also a premature thought, but that is mostly associated with an individual only. Also, prejudice does not pose any threat to someone while racism might involve violence and threat to a group of people belonging to specific race. Prejudice is a phenomenon of thoughts that are being carried out in the mind of a person. Prejudice is not used to talk about some issue being faced by the society.

What is Racism?

Racism is another phenomenon that probably has its roots from prejudice. Racism involves relating something to a person that is not actually a part of that person’s life. Mostly, this occurs to a person basically due to the race to which he belongs. Racism promotes that one particular race is better and superior in nature in comparison to another. Racism is one of the factors that have been used in the past to promote hate or love for someone. Racism can be considered as a branch of the prejudice.

Racism is a word used when you are talking about prejudice related to a specific race. The major difference between prejudice and racism is that a person can be prejudice even if he is not a racist but a person can’t be referred to as racist if he is not prejudiced. Racism is a phenomenon whose results can be dangerous for other people. Being a racist can also result in promoting problems in a society. Racism is based on a decision that is mostly premature and is based on the way a specific system is working in a country or a society. Racism is a set of thoughts that are generated by a number of laws of that society; these may even be due to some treaty, tradition or custom of that area.

What is the Difference Between Prejudice and Racism?

⦁ Prejudice is referred to as a conclusion drawn by anyone without judging the actions of a person or thing.

⦁ Racism is based on a decision that is mostly premature and is based on the way a specific system is working in a country or a society.

⦁ The major difference between prejudice and racism is that a person can be prejudice even if he is not a racist but a person can’t be referred to as racist if he is not prejudice.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Thu May 25, 2017 10:52 pm

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I cannot seem to find out what sort of gene mods the Andermani might have or the G rating of New Potsdam.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Vince   » Fri May 26, 2017 2:59 am

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cthia wrote:I cannot seem to find out what sort of gene mods the Andermani might have or the G rating of New Potsdam.

I don't think the Andermani have any general (across the entire population) gene mods. Gustav Anderman brought in microbiologists and genetic engineers to modify the terrestrial plant life introduced to Potsdam (Kuan Yin):
Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 10 wrote:Before Gustav Anderman and his fleet moved in on it, Potsdam had been named Kuan Yin, after the Chinese goddess of mercy. Which had been one of the more ironic names anyone ever assigned a planet, for the ethnic Chinese who'd settled it had found themselves in a trap as deadly as the one which had almost killed the Graysons' ancestors.
Like the original Manticoran settlers, Kuan Yin's colonists set out from Old Earth before the Warshawski sail had made hyper-space safe enough for colony vessels. They'd made the centuries-long voyage sublight, in cryo, only to discover that the original survey had missed a minor point about their new home's ecosystem. Specifically, about its microbiology. Kuan Yin's soil was rich in all the necessary minerals and most of the required nutrients for Terrestrial plants, but its local microorganisms had shown a voracious appetite for Terran chlorophyll and ravaged every crop the settlers put in. None of them had bothered the colonists or the Terrestrial animals they'd introduced, but no Terrestrial life form could live on the local vegetation, Terran food crops had been all but impossible to raise, and yields had been spectacularly low. The colonists had managed—somehow—to survive by endless, backbreaking labor in the fields, but some staple crops had been completely wiped out, dietary deficiencies had been terrible, and they'd known that for all their desperate efforts, they were waging an ultimately hopeless war against their own planet's microbiology. Eventually, they were bound to lose enough ground to push them over the precipice into extinction, and there'd been nothing they could do about it. All of which explained why they'd greeted Anderman's "conquest" of their home world almost as a relief expedition.
None of Gustav Anderman's peculiarities had kept him from being a gifted administrator, and he'd possessed an outstanding capacity for conceptualizing problems and their solutions. He'd also had a talent, which most of his reasonably sane descendants appeared to share, for recognizing the talents of other individuals and making best use of them. Over the next twenty T-years he'd brought in modern microbiologists and genetic engineers to turn the situation around by creating Terrestrial strains which laughed at the local bugs. Potsdam would never become a garden planet like Darwin's Joke or Maiden Howe, with food surpluses for export, but at least its people were able to feed themselves and their children.
That made him quite acceptable to the natives of Kuan Yin as their new Emperor. His foibles didn't bother them—they would have been prepared to forgive outright lunacy—and they became very loyal subjects. He'd started out by raising and exporting the one product he fully understood—competent, skillfully led mercenaries—and then gone into the conquistador business on his own. By the time of his death, New Berlin had been the capital of a six-system empire, and the Empire had done nothing but grow, sometimes unspectacularly but always steadily, ever since.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

Note: Potsdam is the planet, New Berlin is the star system.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri May 26, 2017 6:25 am

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saber964 wrote:
Fox2! wrote:
Alison had no problem in recognizing not only that Alfred was a Genie, but a Myerdahl 2, at first glance.

Of course, she's Beowulf, and a geneticist in training, so she probably knew the subtle signs setting various mods apart, not only from "baseline" humans, but also from each other.



No not quite, she recognised the fact that he might be a genine. She speculated that Meyerdahl was a possibility along with several others she also discounted one because his coloring didn't match the baseline for the modifications. Also remember in CoS Berry could spot the Ndeble mod in several of the slaves aboard the Felicia III or being able to spot Scrags by their baseline appearance. FYI just finished rereading BatH.

Further FYI genetic modifications do not always mean heavy gravity but could mean modifications for higher or lower oxygen or other gases contained in the atmosphere e.g. Sphinx as a CO2 content of 1%.
Theemile wrote:Or, like Grayson, immunization to environmental factors; in their case, increased heavy metal resistance. Other mods might be for low gravity, radiation resistance, or other environmental factors.

"Don't forget us," says the MAlign (ironically from the back of the class) whose "Mensa mods" includes resistance against mental deficiencies.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Fri May 26, 2017 6:50 am

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saber964 wrote:IIRC the scientists of the Whittaker expedition and Dr. Hobbard used counter-grav because they were only going to be on planet for a relatively short time frame. The Whittaker expedition would only be on planet for one to possibly as long as three years. Remember in SK3 W Ex members moved temporarily to Manticore because of the gravity difference. To understand what the Whittaker expedition is going through try this walk around with an additional 35 % added to your body weight. It would be the equivalent of walking around with a child on your back. If you weigh 100 pounds add another 35 pounds and walk around all day or 150 lbs add 47.5 lbs or 200 lbs add 70 lbs. How many parents have walked around with your kid(s) in a backpack carrier all day. You could probably do it for two to three hours but by the end of that time you'd want nothing more than a hot bath or shower and a bucket of your favorite pain killer.

Absolutely saber, nice post.

Plus—if I might add FYI what was added to my own per my Romanian friends who are mostly all MDs—higher G planets represent not just an inconvenience of carrying around more weight. Inside of the body represents its own differences. Human biology, the machine that is the human body, is designed to work at 1 G and has become quite comfortable within those parameters per millions of years of evolution. Some human bodies are not as resilient to the smallest deviation of the norm in any circumstance. Individual human frailty. Repeated exposure to a significantly higher than normal G could have an accumulative long term effect which I imagine would be a prohibiting factor in choosing to settle on a planet whose G is significantly higher than your native, w/o being preconditioned with mods. Akin to playing with fire and skating on thin ice.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Dauntless   » Fri May 26, 2017 8:39 am

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cthia wrote:The included passage posted about Stephanie Harrington confuses me. Being from Sphinx, are her parents concerned with other Sphinxians or off-worlders in her reference to strangers? Certainly all of the planet itself are genies. Some just opted for different "accessories?"


Stephanie emigrated to sphinx (or rather her parents did, and took her along, when she was about 8), she was not born there.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Theemile   » Fri May 26, 2017 11:27 am

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Dauntless wrote:
cthia wrote:The included passage posted about Stephanie Harrington confuses me. Being from Sphinx, are her parents concerned with other Sphinxians or off-worlders in her reference to strangers? Certainly all of the planet itself are genies. Some just opted for different "accessories?"


Stephanie emigrated to sphinx (or rather her parents did, and took her along, when she was about 8), she was not born there.


The Harringtons were originally citizens of Meyerdahl, another high G planet which was developed early, and one which the population was genetically engineered to live on before the galactic prejudice against genies existed. Thus the Harrington family's​ brought their previous mods with them (from a planet where having mods was the norm) and were already used to environments like Sphinx.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by saber964   » Fri May 26, 2017 5:44 pm

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Dauntless wrote:
cthia wrote:The included passage posted about Stephanie Harrington confuses me. Being from Sphinx, are her parents concerned with other Sphinxians or off-worlders in her reference to strangers? Certainly all of the planet itself are genies. Some just opted for different "accessories?"


Stephanie emigrated to sphinx (or rather her parents did, and took her along, when she was about 8), she was not born there.



What the Harrington's are worried about is the prejudices that still exists at the time. Remember Earth is still recovering from the Final War four hundred plus years after it ended. In Stephanie Harrington time calling someone a genie was a very vulgar epithet but by the time of Honor Harrington it's considered mild profanity.
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