Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

saber964 wrote:Slight problem, QEIII was not Queen at the time it was KRIII and Elizabeth and Michelle are first cousins.

saber964 wrote:

cthia wrote:If Honor had gone to Michelle and discussed her ordeal, Michelle would have talked her into coming clean. Had Young attempted that same crap with Michelle, there is no way he would have gotten away with it... and I imagine the results would have been as equally disastrous for Young had Michelle been privy to her best friend having been assaulted.

Eventually, Michelle would have gotten through to Honor that it was her sworn duty to report what amounts to an appalling criminal act by such a scum of an officer—that she was not doing the navy any favors by letting Young "escape" his just dessert. Manticore was not a 'forsake or leave a man behind' for the betterment of the non-deserving navy, kind of navy. Well... for the most part.

Thing is, I would have thought that Honor was close enough to Michelle that she could very certainly confide in her on something like an attempted rape. In the Honorverse, rape does not carry a stigma for the victim but for the rapist. Moreso, if that rapist is an officer.

Honor and Michelle were fairly close, they enjoyed lots of frolicking as friends and even got in a little trouble together. They had an outgoing friendship. It is little wonder that Honor did not socially withdraw after the assault. Perhaps she did. Perhaps that has much to do with why her friendships/social life didn't blossom after becoming the best friend of someone fifth in line for succession. As one would intuitively expect one's friendships and or offers of friendships (genuine or no) to change after that fact.

I know that Honor, if we're honest with ourselves, was intimidated by Young's lofty birth. He was a Lord. Naturally, Honor felt inferior to Young. He was certainly successful in intimidating her as was his wont.

BUT...

What I don't understand is that Honor's best friend was fifth in line for succession. The Queen of Manticore was her Aunt. Honor was the best friend of the niece of the Queen of Manticore. How could she have been intimidated by Young? Talk about name dropping, Honor was in good company - the best. The average person would have felt they had a little pull being Michelle's best friend.

All of this really peaks my interest to the makings of Young's character -- because still being able to pull off being intimidating to Honor under the circumstances is impressive. During the time of talk about a movie I was really excited about the idea of "some" actor portraying Young's character and nailing it. A good pratagonist oftentimes carries a storyline, fuels it, even determines its appeal. Best supporting actor/protagonist. Young exuded general confidence - though false. It was a reflection and measure of his social status and confidence - which was real. I imagine he was a cross between a Houseman and a High Ridge. Point being, Young had to be the quintessential jaded privileged aristocrat born with his head wedged far up his own ass -- the type of aristocrat that others who wore the title well, loathed, like Terekov?, iirc. Aristocrats like Young gave the title a bad name.

The more I think about it, had Young been successful in raping Honor I can imagine Honor still not being able to come clean. What would have been different in her thinking? Even if Young had simply penetrated her for a certain amount of seconds, Honor would not have told. And more importantly, how would the fact that Young had successfully raped or penetrated her have changed the dynamics between the two? Would that fact have placed Honor's internal reactor at a higher nominal?

How would the relative dynamics have changed for Nimitz?

In fact, had Honor recovered after being successfully penetrated and then the physical engagement occurred, Honor may have become a murderer -- second degree... temporary insanity.

Bracketing all of that momentarily, I'd really like to know how a successful rape would have affected Nimitz (effected Nimitz as well, LOL). In that case, Young would not have become simply an enemy that attempted to do physical harm, he would have become an enemy that DID do physical harm.

<I don't know why he did what he did. I do know he won't get a chance to do it again>

Remember, when a treecat is bonded to a human and the human dies, most likely the treecat dies as well. Treecats can not handle such a severe severence of the bonds of love. Treecats die of heartbreak. So in that, Nimitz would have had to defend himself, because in essence a successful attack would have occurred against his own life as well. It would have been self preservation. Is it in error to think that if you attack one half of a bonded equation, in essence you also attack the whole?

<Things have changed for me now, Honor. You know what they say about treecat enemies>

"Yes, two types. They are either living or dead? How has that changed?"

<Two types still. Either wearing Pavel Young's uniform or not>

Slight problem, QEIII was not Queen at the time it was KRIII and Elizabeth and Michelle are first cousins.

Vince wrote:

saber964 wrote:Slight problem, QEIII was not Queen at the time it was KRIII and Elizabeth and Michelle are first cousins.

And Michelle wasn't 5th in line for the throne after Elizabeth ascended to the Manticoran throne until St. Just's assassination attempt in Yeltsin in Ashes of Victory (killing both Michelle's father and brother, both of who were ahead of her in the line of succession).

Vince wrote:

saber964 wrote:Slight problem, QEIII was not Queen at the time it was KRIII and Elizabeth and Michelle are first cousins.

And Michelle wasn't 5th in line for the throne after Elizabeth ascended to the Manticoran throne until St. Just's assassination attempt in Yeltsin in Ashes of Victory (killing both Michelle's father and brother, both of who were ahead of her in the line of succession).

Fox2! wrote:
From Roger III, would not the succession have gone
Elizabeth (and her heirs)
Michael (and his heirs)
Caitrin (Edward Henke, Earl Gold Peak) is not in the succession)
Calvin (and his heirs)
Michelle

Since at the time of Roger's death, Elizabeth, Michael, and Calvin didn't have heirs of their own, Michelle would have been fifth in line. After the Cromarty Assassination, Michelle would still have been fifth in line (Roger, Joanna, Michael, Caitrin, then Michelle). Ruth is not in the succession, as she is not Michael's daughter.

cthia wrote:In fact, it is the resounding truth in these very facts that gave Young the balls, nerve and audacity to think he could get away with it in the first place. Young had lived that life for so long without barriers that it became part of his brainwashed privileged mentality. The part "becomes him." He truly saw no limitation to what he could do. He was above certain laws meant only for the lowly born and underprivileged -- the base born.

Privilege hath its own reward. It demands without asking.

Wiki wrote:YEOMAN

A yeoman /ˈjoʊmən/ was a member of a social class in late medieval to early modern England. In early recorded uses, a yeoman was an attendant in a noble household; hence titles such as "Yeoman of the Chamber", "Yeoman of the Crown", "Yeoman Usher", "King's Yeoman", Yeomen Warders, Yeomen of the Guard. The later sense of yeoman as "a commoner who cultivates his own land" is recorded from the 15th century; in military context, yeoman was the rank of the third order of "fighting men", below knights and squires, but above knaves. A specialized meaning in naval terminology, "petty officer in charge of supplies", arose in the 1660s.

Wiki continued... wrote:Etymology

The term is first recorded c. 1300. Its etymology is unclear. It may be a contraction of Old English iunge man, meaning "young man" (compare knave, meaning "boy"), but there are alternative suggestions, such as derivations from an unattested *geaman (a hypothetical cognate of Old Frisian gaman, from gea- "province") meaning "villager; rustic". The Canon's Yeoman's Prologue and Tale appears in Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, written between 1387 and 1400.

Fox2! wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
From Roger III, would not the succession have gone
Elizabeth (and her heirs)
Michael (and his heirs)
Caitrin (Edward Henke, Earl Gold Peak) is not in the succession)
Calvin (and his heirs)
Michelle

Since at the time of Roger's death, Elizabeth, Michael, and Calvin didn't have heirs of their own, Michelle would have been fifth in line. After the Cromarty Assassination, Michelle would still have been fifth in line (Roger, Joanna, Michael, Caitrin, then Michelle). Ruth is not in the succession, as she is not Michael's daughter.

If Michael and Judith had any children, would they be in the succession, or is their marriage morganatic?

More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (4) The Star Kingdom of Manticore, (A) Founding and Early History wrote:As a final safeguard intended to prevent the monarchy from losing touch with the non-aristocratic majority of the Star Kingdom's population, Roger I and Elizabeth I insisted that the Constitution include one additional provision. The heir to the throne is required by law to marry a commoner. Other members of the royal family may marry whomever they wish, but the Crown Prince or Crown Princess must marry outside the aristocracy.

saber964 wrote:

cthia wrote:If Honor had gone to Michelle and discussed her ordeal, Michelle would have talked her into coming clean. Had Young attempted that same crap with Michelle, there is no way he would have gotten away with it... and I imagine the results would have been as equally disastrous for Young had Michelle been privy to her best friend having been assaulted.

Eventually, Michelle would have gotten through to Honor that it was her sworn duty to report what amounts to an appalling criminal act by such a scum of an officer—that she was not doing the navy any favors by letting Young "escape" his just dessert. Manticore was not a 'forsake or leave a man behind' for the betterment of the non-deserving navy, kind of navy. Well... for the most part.

Thing is, I would have thought that Honor was close enough to Michelle that she could very certainly confide in her on something like an attempted rape. In the Honorverse, rape does not carry a stigma for the victim but for the rapist. Moreso, if that rapist is an officer.

Honor and Michelle were fairly close, they enjoyed lots of frolicking as friends and even got in a little trouble together. They had an outgoing friendship. It is little wonder that Honor did not socially withdraw after the assault. Perhaps she did. Perhaps that has much to do with why her friendships/social life didn't blossom after becoming the best friend of someone fifth in line for succession. As one would intuitively expect one's friendships and or offers of friendships (genuine or no) to change after that fact.

I know that Honor, if we're honest with ourselves, was intimidated by Young's lofty birth. He was a Lord. Naturally, Honor felt inferior to Young. He was certainly successful in intimidating her as was his wont.

BUT...

What I don't understand is that Honor's best friend was fifth in line for succession. The Queen of Manticore was her Aunt. Honor was the best friend of the niece of the Queen of Manticore. How could she have been intimidated by Young? Talk about name dropping, Honor was in good company - the best. The average person would have felt they had a little pull being Michelle's best friend.

All of this really peaks my interest to the makings of Young's character -- because still being able to pull off being intimidating to Honor under the circumstances is impressive. During the time of talk about a movie I was really excited about the idea of "some" actor portraying Young's character and nailing it. A good pratagonist oftentimes carries a storyline, fuels it, even determines its appeal. Best supporting actor/protagonist. Young exuded general confidence - though false. It was a reflection and measure of his social status and confidence - which was real. I imagine he was a cross between a Houseman and a High Ridge. Point being, Young had to be the quintessential jaded privileged aristocrat born with his head wedged far up his own ass -- the type of aristocrat that others who wore the title well, loathed, like Terekov?, iirc. Aristocrats like Young gave the title a bad name.

The more I think about it, had Young been successful in raping Honor I can imagine Honor still not being able to come clean. What would have been different in her thinking? Even if Young had simply penetrated her for a certain amount of seconds, Honor would not have told. And more importantly, how would the fact that Young had successfully raped or penetrated her have changed the dynamics between the two? Would that fact have placed Honor's internal reactor at a higher nominal?

How would the relative dynamics have changed for Nimitz?

In fact, had Honor recovered after being successfully penetrated and then the physical engagement occurred, Honor may have become a murderer -- second degree... temporary insanity.

Bracketing all of that momentarily, I'd really like to know how a successful rape would have affected Nimitz (effected Nimitz as well, LOL). In that case, Young would not have become simply an enemy that attempted to do physical harm, he would have become an enemy that DID do physical harm.

<I don't know why he did what he did. I do know he won't get a chance to do it again>

Remember, when a treecat is bonded to a human and the human dies, most likely the treecat dies as well. Treecats can not handle such a severe severence of the bonds of love. Treecats die of heartbreak. So in that, Nimitz would have had to defend himself, because in essence a successful attack would have occurred against his own life as well. It would have been self preservation. Is it in error to think that if you attack one half of a bonded equation, in essence you also attack the whole?

<Things have changed for me now, Honor. You know what they say about treecat enemies>

"Yes, two types. They are either living or dead? How has that changed?"

<Two types still. Either wearing Pavel Young's uniform or not>

Slight problem, QEIII was not Queen at the time it was KRIII and Elizabeth and Michelle are first cousins.

Kizarvexis wrote:And just because Nimitz may have urged her to come clean about what really happened, doesn't mean Honor would listen. Especially, when it was tied into something as emotionally charged as attempted rape. And when Honor could justify to herself that she kicked the stuffing out of him and this could splash onto the service if it came out into the open. Remember the rumor campaign and how they got her to accept command of HMS Wayfarer to get them out of a bind? It was predicated on how Honor wouldn't do something for herself, but would do anything else duty required.

Johnathan_S wrote:And in some ways Honor probably felt that the physical damage she did to Young was an overreaction; she delivered the last few blows because she wanted vengeance not just to stop his unwanted physical contact, and that probably fed back into her refusal to report. If she'd used excessive force then she'd feel a bit guilty too and subconsciously all too likely to see it at least somewhat as offsetting offenses.

She'd be wrong about that - but it may have been a factor in her thinking... To the extent that you can categorize her choices after the attack as being thought through.


If she'd be unable to defend herself I feel certain that she would have reported the attack and rape.

cthia wrote:I have one particular problem with this logic which may denote a hiccup in my own. I'm trying to wave it off, but my DNA won't allow me. For the record, I'll just go ahead and at least list my qualms with it.

On the one hand, I can logically grasp Honor's possible concern for the navy.

OTOH, Jonathan's sentiment stirs my Aristotelian self a bit much. Honor was too much of a perfectionist and upright naval officer with an unwavering sense of morals, scruples and values. This woman was raised and instilled with an impeccable sense of right and wrong and duty. This is the woman who could not back down from sicking Beauty and the Beast on every freighter suspected of smuggling pelts including the freighters owned by Hauptman; even after her XO warned her what it could mean to her career after Hauptman caught wind of it. Honor had to do it, even at the expense of what it might mean to her career she still had to do it. She was willing to risk her career over it, because of her sense of right and wrong and order in the universe.

kizarvexis wrote:You are comparing the actions of someone who is still learning HOW to be an officer at the Academy with her actions after 25 years as an officer who had this mistake she made to learn from. When you are learning, you make mistakes. Don't forget Honor realized that it was a mistake to not take it to the Commandant after the fact. In fact, she says she hates herself for not speaking up. All of your concerns seem to me to be covered in OBS.

On Basilisk Station, chapter 6 wrote:Honor was grateful for his silence, for her brain was trying to grapple with too many thoughts at once. Memories of the Academy dominated them, especially of the terrible scene in the commandant's office as Mr. Midshipman Lord Young, broken ribs and collarbone still immobilized, split lips still puffed and distended, one blackened eye swollen almost shut, was required to apologize to Ms. Midshipman Harrington for his "inappropriate language and actions" before the official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" went into his file.

She should have told the whole story, she thought miserably, but he was the son of a powerful nobleman and she was only the daughter of a retired medical officer. And not a particularly beautiful one, either. Who would have believed the Earl of North Hollow's son had assaulted and attempted to rape a gawky, overgrown lump of a girl who wasn't even pretty? Besides, where was her proof? They'd been alone—Young had seen to that!—and she'd been so shaken she'd fled back to her dorm room instead of reporting it instantly. By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.

And so she'd settled for the lesser charge, the incident that had happened earlier, before witnesses, when she rebuffed his smugly confident advances. Perhaps if she hadn't been so surprised, so taken aback by his sudden interest and obvious assurance that she would agree, she might have declined more gracefully. But it wasn't a problem she'd ever had before. She'd never developed the techniques for declining without affronting his overweening ego, and he hadn't taken it well. No doubt that "slight" to his pride was what had triggered later events, but his immediate response had been bad enough, and the Academy took a dim view of sexual harassment, especially when it took the form of insulting language and abusive conduct directed by a senior midshipman at a junior. Commandant Hartley had been furious enough with him over that, but who would have believed the truth?

Commandant Hartley would have, she thought. She'd realized that years ago, and hated herself for not telling him at the time. Looking back, she could recognize his hints, his all but overt pleas for her to tell him everything. If he hadn't suspected, he would hardly have required Young to apologize after she'd reduced him to a bloody pulp. Young had counted on neither the strength and reaction time Sphinx's gravity bestowed nor the extra tutoring in unarmed combat Chief MacDougal had been giving her, and she'd known better than to let him up after she had him down. He was only lucky he'd tried for her in the showers, when Nimitz wasn't around, for he would be far less handsome today if the treecat had been present.

No doubt it was as well Nimitz hadn't been there, and, she admitted, there'd been a certain savage joy in hurting him herself for what he'd tried to do. But the response had been entirely out of proportion to his official offense, and no one had ever doubted that his "fall" had been nothing of the sort. Hartley might not have had any proof, but he would never have come down on Young so harshly under the circumstances if he hadn't had a pretty shrewd notion of what had actually happened.

Yet she hadn't realized that then, and she'd told herself she'd already dealt with the matter, anyway. That she didn't want to precipitate a scandal that could only hurt the Academy. That it was a case of least said, soonest mended, since no one would have believed her anyway. Bad enough to be involved in something so humiliating and degrading without exposing herself to that, as well! She'd almost been able to hear the sniggers about the homely horse of a girl and her "delusions," and, after all, hadn't she let herself get a little carried away? There'd been no need to pound him into semi-consciousness. That had gone beyond simple selfdefense into the realm of punishment.

So she'd let the matter rest, and in so doing she'd bought herself the worst of both worlds. Attempted rape was one of the service's crash-and-burn offenses; if Young had been convicted of that, he would never have worn an officer's uniform, noble birth or no. But he hadn't been. She hadn't gotten him out of the service, and she had made an enemy for life, for Young would never forget that she'd beaten him bloody. Nor would he ever forgive her for the humiliation of being forced to apologize to her before Commandant Hartley and his executive officer, and he had powerful friends, both in and out of the service. She'd felt their influence more than once in her career, and his malicious delight in dropping full responsibility for the entire Basilisk System on her shoulders—leaving her with a single, over-age light cruiser to do a job which should have been the task of an entire flotilla—burned on her tongue like poison. It was petty and vicious . . . and entirely in keeping with his personality.