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Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:26 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:And just because Nimitz may have urged her to come clean about what really happened, doesn't mean Honor would listen. Especially, when it was tied into something as emotionally charged as attempted rape. And when Honor could justify to herself that she kicked the stuffing out of him and this could splash onto the service if it came out into the open. Remember the rumor campaign and how they got her to accept command of HMS Wayfarer to get them out of a bind? It was predicated on how Honor wouldn't do something for herself, but would do anything else duty required.


And in some ways Honor probably felt that the physical damage she did to Young was an overreaction; she delivered the last few blows because she wanted vengeance not just to stop his unwanted physical contact, and that probably fed back into her refusal to report. If she'd used excessive force then she'd feel a bit guilty too and subconsciously all too likely to see it at least somewhat as offsetting offenses.

She'd be wrong about that - but it may have been a factor in her thinking... To the extent that you can categorize her choices after the attack as being thought through.


If she'd be unable to defend herself I feel certain that she would have reported the attack and rape.


cthia wrote:I have one particular problem with this logic which may denote a hiccup in my own. I'm trying to wave it off, but my DNA won't allow me. For the record, I'll just go ahead and at least list my qualms with it.

On the one hand, I can logically grasp Honor's possible concern for the navy.

OTOH, Jonathan's sentiment stirs my Aristotelian self a bit much. Honor was too much of a perfectionist and upright naval officer with an unwavering sense of morals, scruples and values. This woman was raised and instilled with an impeccable sense of right and wrong and duty. This is the woman who could not back down from sicking Beauty and the Beast on every freighter suspected of smuggling pelts including the freighters owned by Hauptman; even after her XO warned her what it could mean to her career after Hauptman caught wind of it. Honor had to do it, even at the expense of what it might mean to her career she still had to do it. She was willing to risk her career over it, because of her sense of right and wrong and order in the universe.


You are comparing the actions of someone who is still learning HOW to be an officer at the Academy with her actions after 25 years as an officer who had this mistake she made to learn from. When you are learning, you make mistakes. Don't forget Honor realized that it was a mistake to not take it to the Commandant after the fact. In fact, she says she hates herself for not speaking up. All of your concerns seem to me to be covered in OBS.

On Basilisk Station, chapter 6 wrote:Honor was grateful for his silence, for her brain was trying to grapple with too many thoughts at once. Memories of the Academy dominated them, especially of the terrible scene in the commandant's office as Mr. Midshipman Lord Young, broken ribs and collarbone still immobilized, split lips still puffed and distended, one blackened eye swollen almost shut, was required to apologize to Ms. Midshipman Harrington for his "inappropriate language and actions" before the official reprimand for "conduct unbecoming" went into his file.

She should have told the whole story, she thought miserably, but he was the son of a powerful nobleman and she was only the daughter of a retired medical officer. And not a particularly beautiful one, either. Who would have believed the Earl of North Hollow's son had assaulted and attempted to rape a gawky, overgrown lump of a girl who wasn't even pretty? Besides, where was her proof? They'd been alone—Young had seen to that!—and she'd been so shaken she'd fled back to her dorm room instead of reporting it instantly. By the time anyone else knew a thing about it, his cronies had dragged him off to the infirmary with some story about "falling down the stairs" on his way to the gym.

And so she'd settled for the lesser charge, the incident that had happened earlier, before witnesses, when she rebuffed his smugly confident advances. Perhaps if she hadn't been so surprised, so taken aback by his sudden interest and obvious assurance that she would agree, she might have declined more gracefully. But it wasn't a problem she'd ever had before. She'd never developed the techniques for declining without affronting his overweening ego, and he hadn't taken it well. No doubt that "slight" to his pride was what had triggered later events, but his immediate response had been bad enough, and the Academy took a dim view of sexual harassment, especially when it took the form of insulting language and abusive conduct directed by a senior midshipman at a junior. Commandant Hartley had been furious enough with him over that, but who would have believed the truth?

Commandant Hartley would have, she thought. She'd realized that years ago, and hated herself for not telling him at the time. Looking back, she could recognize his hints, his all but overt pleas for her to tell him everything. If he hadn't suspected, he would hardly have required Young to apologize after she'd reduced him to a bloody pulp. Young had counted on neither the strength and reaction time Sphinx's gravity bestowed nor the extra tutoring in unarmed combat Chief MacDougal had been giving her, and she'd known better than to let him up after she had him down. He was only lucky he'd tried for her in the showers, when Nimitz wasn't around, for he would be far less handsome today if the treecat had been present.

No doubt it was as well Nimitz hadn't been there, and, she admitted, there'd been a certain savage joy in hurting him herself for what he'd tried to do. But the response had been entirely out of proportion to his official offense, and no one had ever doubted that his "fall" had been nothing of the sort. Hartley might not have had any proof, but he would never have come down on Young so harshly under the circumstances if he hadn't had a pretty shrewd notion of what had actually happened.

Yet she hadn't realized that then, and she'd told herself she'd already dealt with the matter, anyway. That she didn't want to precipitate a scandal that could only hurt the Academy. That it was a case of least said, soonest mended, since no one would have believed her anyway. Bad enough to be involved in something so humiliating and degrading without exposing herself to that, as well! She'd almost been able to hear the sniggers about the homely horse of a girl and her "delusions," and, after all, hadn't she let herself get a little carried away? There'd been no need to pound him into semi-consciousness. That had gone beyond simple selfdefense into the realm of punishment.

So she'd let the matter rest, and in so doing she'd bought herself the worst of both worlds. Attempted rape was one of the service's crash-and-burn offenses; if Young had been convicted of that, he would never have worn an officer's uniform, noble birth or no. But he hadn't been. She hadn't gotten him out of the service, and she had made an enemy for life, for Young would never forget that she'd beaten him bloody. Nor would he ever forgive her for the humiliation of being forced to apologize to her before Commandant Hartley and his executive officer, and he had powerful friends, both in and out of the service. She'd felt their influence more than once in her career, and his malicious delight in dropping full responsibility for the entire Basilisk System on her shoulders—leaving her with a single, over-age light cruiser to do a job which should have been the task of an entire flotilla—burned on her tongue like poison. It was petty and vicious . . . and entirely in keeping with his personality.



cthia wrote:Tester knows Young deserved Honor putting her foot so far up his arse that a brain surgeon was needed to get it out. Indeed it was wrong what Young did. But those last few blows was wrong that Honor delivered, she hurt Young unnecessarily.* She had a human right to protect herself even against an officer, but the last few blows were unwarranted and were done for the wrong human emotion of vengeance -- regardless of how much an onlooker with all of the facts agree with her. For Honor to withhold the confrontation from Commandant Hartley made her a hypocrite on some level and tarnished her 'Little Miss Right' self-made image of herself. Made her somewhat as guilty as bending the rules as Hauptman's freighters. Didn't she break some regs exacting vengeance with the last few blows? Isn't it against the regs to purposefully injure a fellow officer? If Young hadn't been such a wussy and afraid of embarrassment he could have went to an "improper authority" other than Hartley -- someone in the good ole boy network and told a completely different story. One which included a spurned woman because he didn't return her affections and that he simply wanted sex and she went berserk and used undue force.** Which is probably what he would have cried if Honor had reported it.


That story of she wanted to have sex, but Honor freaked out and attacked me for turning her down has the small problem of it was happening in the gym's shower, which I would expect was the women's shower as she was surprised to see him there. That shoots up a big flare, for what was Young doing in the shower for him to turn her down and her to attack him over it. Young didn't remember anything after the beatdown, his friends had to help him to the infirmary and they came up with the fell down story.

cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:If she'd be unable to defend herself I feel certain that she would have reported the attack and rape.
A notion that could be misconstrued as someone guilty of being a bit self-centered -- which she is not. She is someone with a character who is the complete antithesis of someone who is an opportunist -- or someone who would do the right thing only when it suited or benefitted her.

At any rate, I wonder if she would have reported it had Young been successful at raping her -- by somewhat drugging her with chloroform or some manner of date-rape drug.

* Does textev give the actual damage Honor delivered to Pavel?

** Undue force is a real issue. Even in our own society police officers are charged with having to skirt the line between the two and are charged daily across the nation with crossing it.

I have five sisters and my father insisted that they all learn how to protect themselves. They can all clean, break down and fire an assortment of weapons, beginning at a very young age. Two are fifth degree black belts and the other three are at least third. The law requires that they inform an assailant of their skills when possible and undue force beyond their own protection is unlawful. Go figure.


If he was successful, I think it would depend on the circumstances of the event and what she remembered of it. If she didn't remember anything about the lead up to the rape because of a date rape drug, she MIGHT have kept quiet. But if she remembered it, I don't think she would have kept quiet. Based on her reactions to the event, her reasoning for keeping quiet was he tried to rape her and got lumps for it.

Below is Young's recollection of the event. Based on the fact that everything she did to him was before he went to the ground, I'm not sure you would be able to get an undue force conviction for defense against a rapist in the act. While Honor may think she could have stopped earlier, when someone is attacking you, you put them on the ground before running. Otherwise, they could turn the tables and take you down. The quote below also has a blow by blow account of the 'fight'.


The Short Victorious War, chapter 20 wrote:A low, harsh, hating sound quivered deep in his throat as he remembered his humiliation. He'd planned it so carefully. He'd spent days timing her schedule, until he learned about those private late-night exercise sessions of hers. She liked to turn the grav plates up, and she could have the gym to herself that late, and he'd smiled as he realized he could catch her alone in the showers. He'd even taken the precaution of slipping cotanine into the celery one of her friends kept feeding to her damned treecat. He hadn't got enough into it to kill the little monster, damn it, but it had made him so sleepy she'd left him in her dorm room.

It had been perfect. He'd caught her actually in the shower, naked, and seen the shock and shame in her eyes. He'd savored her panic as he stalked her through the spray, watching her back away while her hands tried ridiculously to cover herself, already tasting his revenge . . . but then something changed. The panic in her eyes had turned into something else when he reached for her to throw her up against the shower wall, and her slippery-wet skin had twisted out of his grasp.

He'd been surprised by her strength as she broke his grip. That was his first thought. And then he'd whooped in anguish as the heel of her right hand slammed into his belly. He'd doubled up, retching with hurt, and her knee had driven up into his crotch like a battering ram.

He'd screamed. Sweat beaded his forehead as he remembered the shame of that moment, the searing agony in his groin and, behind it, the sick, terrible humiliation of defeat. But just stopping him hadn't been enough for the bitch. Her savage, unfair blow had surprised and paralyzed him, and she'd followed through with brutal efficiency.

An elbow had smashed his lips to paste. The edge of a chopping hand had broken his nose. Another crushing blow snapped his collarbone, and her knee ripped up again—this time into his face—as he went down. She'd snapped off two incisors at the gum-line, broken six of his ribs, and left him sobbing in bloody-mouthed agony and terror under the pounding shower as she snatched up her clothing and fled.

God only knew how he'd gotten to the infirmary. He couldn't even remember staggering out of the gym or how he'd run into Reardon and Cavendish, but they'd put some sort of story together. Not enough for anyone to believe, but enough, coupled with his name, to deflect official retribution. Or most of it, anyway. That sanctimonious prig Hartley had still dragged him into his office and made him apologize—apologize!—to the bitch in front of him and the Adjutant.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Louis R   » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:55 pm

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Anyone else notice how totally unfit for combat duty this thought shows Young to be?

Like Burdette, he was convinced that fighting was a ritual activity, bound about with rules and norms of behaviour. And like Burdette he lost his fight on the first stroke. Any bets on him being a fencer at the Academy, with the absolute minimum of unarmed combat and modern weapons training permitted by the syllabus?


Kizarvexis wrote:< snip > Her savage, unfair blow had surprised and paralyzed him, and she'd followed through with brutal efficiency.



edited to add a comment
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:23 am

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Louis R wrote:Anyone else notice how totally unfit for combat duty this thought shows Young to be?

Like Burdette, he was convinced that fighting was a ritual activity, bound about with rules and norms of behaviour. And like Burdette he lost his fight on the first stroke. Any bets on him being a fencer at the Academy, with the absolute minimum of unarmed combat and modern weapons training permitted by the syllabus?


Kizarvexis wrote:< snip > Her savage, unfair blow had surprised and paralyzed him, and she'd followed through with brutal efficiency.



edited to add a comment

Yes Louis, it does and I do.

I broached the subject of Young's obvious lack of any combative skills by the way he seems to be afraid of his own shadow, in the CRUSHER thread.

I question whether Young actually attended classes at the Isle, because of his incompetence and seeming lack of hand to hand combat ability. And his lack of knowledge that others who attended the academy would likely have the ability.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:27 am

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Are Honor and Nimitz the oldest living cat-human bond? Do they predate Beth and Ariel?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by The E   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:59 am

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cthia wrote:Are Honor and Nimitz the oldest living cat-human bond? Do they predate Beth and Ariel?


They are the oldest pair mentioned in the novels (Elizabeth was adopted in 1880, Honor sometime in the 1860s). That does not, however, preclude the existence of people who got adopted earlier who are still alive in 1920 PD (this is quite easily the case, given how long prolong has been widely available in the Star Kingdom; the procedure was first introduced in 1829, after all).
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by robert132   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:07 pm

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cthia wrote:
I question whether Young actually attended classes at the Isle, because of his incompetence and seeming lack of hand to hand combat ability. And his lack of knowledge that others who attended the academy would likely have the ability.


He probably attended only the absolute minimum necessary and also probably didn't really apply himself to the lessons.

I wonder what his class standing was. 200th out of a class of 200 graduating (no idea how large the class actually was)?
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:47 pm

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The E wrote:
cthia wrote:Are Honor and Nimitz the oldest living cat-human bond? Do they predate Beth and Ariel?


They are the oldest pair mentioned in the novels (Elizabeth was adopted in 1880, Honor sometime in the 1860s). That does not, however, preclude the existence of people who got adopted earlier who are still alive in 1920 PD (this is quite easily the case, given how long prolong has been widely available in the Star Kingdom; the procedure was first introduced in 1829, after all).


To add, Honor's parents generation all had prolong, so chances are someone in that generation was also mated. For-ex, Monroe, who currently is bonded to Prince Consort Justin, was originally bonded to King Rodger, and was in the process of suiciding (by just stopping living) when he and Justin bonded while fighting off King Rodger's assassin.

(BTW, having the former King's Treecat snap back from the dead and bond with you, pretty much dashes all concerns that you are not right for the royal heir....)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:00 pm

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Theemile wrote:To add, Honor's parents generation all had prolong, so chances are someone in that generation was also mated. For-ex, Monroe, who currently is bonded to Prince Consort Justin, was originally bonded to King Rodger, and was in the process of suiciding (by just stopping living) when he and Justin bonded while fighting off King Rodger's assassin.

(BTW, having the former King's Treecat snap back from the dead and bond with you, pretty much dashes all concerns that you are not right for the royal heir....)

Given that quite a lot of the bonded pairs are with the Sphinx Forestry Service I suspect there are several active (or retired) bonded Rangers whose bonds predate Honor's with Nimitz. We just haven't met them. (yet?)

(After all, by profession, the Forestry Rangers probably have the highest exposure to unbonded 'cats and hence the most chanced to stumble across a compatible one)
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:16 am

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cthia wrote:Are Honor and Nimitz the oldest living cat-human bond? Do they predate Beth and Ariel?


Chapter 4 of _Honor among Enemies_ introduces Admiral Georgides (then commander of space station Vulcan) and his companion Odysseus. They had bonded more than 50 years before, which would had been around Honor's birth date, give or take a couple of years.
----------------------------
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Re: Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:39 am

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I can't think of where there would be specific text ev, but given how treecat ability to detect nearby mindglow appears to work I can't imagine that they were able to avoid feeling the mindglow of nearby settlers even when the treecats were still hiding their existence.

We know they couldn't understand human speech (not for many years) but the emotional leakage detection that cithia was talking about seems totally self evident unless we hypothesize that no treecat got within a quarter mile or so of a human until Stephany solved the great disappearing celery mystery.

Show me anywhere in "A Beautiful Friendship" that they felt all comfortable or safe around humans. But there is much that says exactly the opposite. Like the first page.

"The two-legs could be dangerous, and they kept changing things, but they weren't like death fangs or snow hunters, who all too often killed randomly or for pleasure, and scouts and hunters like Climbs Quickly had watched that first handful of two-legs from the cover of the frost-bright leaves, perched high in the trees. The newcomers had spread out carrying strange things—some that glittered or blinked flashing lights and others that stood on tall, skinny legs—which they moved from place to place and peered through, and then they'd driven stakes of some equally strange not-wood into the ground at intervals. The Bright Water memory singers had sung back through the songs from other clans and decided that the things they peered through were tools of some sort. Climbs Quickly couldn't argue their conclusion, yet the two-leg tools were as different from the hand axes and knives the People made as the substance from which they were made was unlike the flint, wood, and bone the People used.

"All of which explained why the two-legs must be watched most carefully . . . and secretly. Small as the People were, they were quick and clever, and their axes and knives and use of fire let them accomplish things larger but less clever creatures could not. Yet the shortest two-leg stood more than two People-lengths in height. Even if their tools had been no better than the People's (and Climbs Quickly knew they were much, much better) their greater size would have made them far more effective. And if there was no sign that the two-legs intended to threaten the People, there was also no sign they did not, so no doubt it was fortunate they were so easy to spy upon."
Jonathan_S wrote:Sorry, I was focused on the "could treecats feel human mindglows" and missed the part where that was supposed to make them trust (or at least feel safe with) humans. :o

Yeah, that clearly didn't happen in the books. Nothing the cats must have been detecting made them feel it worth the risk to allow humans to know they existed. Sure, because the cats were hidden and therefore humans didn't know about them no cat got a sufficient feeling of danger or hostility directed towards it for it to feel the need to attack and kill the human in preemptive self-defense. But they pretty self evidently didn't feel all warm and fuzzy towards humans. Which I find completely understandable.


First off, I am thrilled you all have been following what I think is an exciting thread.

Two, much of the groundwork I'm attempting to lay is from logical deduction which can be fumbled by the logician. Therefore, I appreciate and welcome rebuttals and replys. "Truth is of the essence."

In this case I stand by my original thought. I appreciate kzt's passage but it steps outside of the bounds put forth by my original premise...

cthia wrote:Even when the two species first met...

Kzt's passage indicates a time prior to the two species becoming simultaneously aware of each other. Being formally introduced. As in, human ECM and radar -- in the form of human emotion directed specifically at the cats -- had not yet happened. The passage depicts the cats as spies and the humans are completely oblivious to the fact -- which I presume to the cats would be equivalent to human emotion set to "passives." Only after the two species stood gaze to gaze does my thought begin and human emotion goes "active."

That isn't to say that they unconditionally trusted humans, no. I am certain that they do not unconditionally trust humans now. How can they when there are those that would do them harm. Heck, humans do not unconditionally trust humans. Nonetheless, I do not think it is overreaching to derive a hypothesis that they do not harbor an overall prejudiced attitude toward the human species that clumps them all together into one big pot-o-danger -- in comparison to the genus hexapuma who would most likely kill at every opportunity. Certainly, human mindglows did not generally broadcast malevolence, violence or an impending attack -- in active mode -- eye to eye, toe to toe.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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