Honor & Nimitz & Pavel Young

Would Honor have been charged with murder if she'd killed Young under the same circumstances -- no penetration?

At any rate, OTOH it seems things would have turned out much better for her if she had.

OTOH, might she have gone down for murder if she had delivered a fatal blow?

If Young had been successful in penetrating her, would that have been cause and clearance to kill? Certainly a temporary insanity plea available if need be.

The Honorverse and all of its peculiarities introduces something that has a much more probability than ever. That a rapist can be killed without benefit of a firearm or weapon. Yet in the Honorverse those bare hands can be considered undue force for more than one reason.

Certainly it can happen on present day Earth as well, that some idiot rapist is so unlucky that he unwittingly targets an accomplished martial arts expert and is killed. If Honor would have been crazy enough to volunteer knowledge of those last few unnecessary blows would she have gone down for it?

Are the ROE... "In case of penetration... you are cleared to kill?"

cthia wrote:Would Honor have been charged with murder if she'd killed Young under the same circumstances -- no penetration?

At any rate, OTOH it seems things would have turned out much better for her if she had.

OTOH, might she have gone down for murder if she had delivered a fatal blow?

If Young had been successful in penetrating her, would that have been cause and clearance to kill? Certainly a temporary insanity plea available if need be.

The Honorverse and all of its peculiarities introduces something that has a much more probability than ever. That a rapist can be killed without benefit of a firearm or weapon. Yet in the Honorverse those bare hands can be considered undue force for more than one reason.

Certainly it can happen on present day Earth as well, that some idiot rapist is so unlucky that he unwittingly targets an accomplished martial arts expert and is killed. If Honor would have been crazy enough to volunteer knowledge of those last few unnecessary blows would she have gone down for it?

Are the ROE... "In case of penetration... you are cleared to kill?"

I look at it like this, rape is a crime of violence as is ATTEMPTED RAPE. Violence in the cause of self defense is a no brainer. Today if the potential victim of a rape had a firearm at hand and used it to stop the attacker and the attacker died in most jurisdictions (except in some uber-liberal bastions) that would be considered justifiable homicide.

If Honor had delivered a fatal blow, breaking Pavel's neck for instance or driving nasal bone fragments into his brain I think the location of the act (shower), time of day (evening,) and other pertinent facts would probably lead the investigating Master at Arms and investigating officer to conclude this death was as a result of self defense.

I would be concerned about how this death, probably the first at her hands, would affect her and damage her psyche even after a court of inquiry exonerated her. Death witnessed close up and personal, especially death delivered by one's own hand is extremely traumatic, the first one especially so.

The trauma might even cause her to re-think a military / naval career.

robert132 wrote:

cthia wrote:Would Honor have been charged with murder if she'd killed Young under the same circumstances -- no penetration?

At any rate, OTOH it seems things would have turned out much better for her if she had.

OTOH, might she have gone down for murder if she had delivered a fatal blow?

If Young had been successful in penetrating her, would that have been cause and clearance to kill? Certainly a temporary insanity plea available if need be.

The Honorverse and all of its peculiarities introduces something that has a much more probability than ever. That a rapist can be killed without benefit of a firearm or weapon. Yet in the Honorverse those bare hands can be considered undue force for more than one reason.

Certainly it can happen on present day Earth as well, that some idiot rapist is so unlucky that he unwittingly targets an accomplished martial arts expert and is killed. If Honor would have been crazy enough to volunteer knowledge of those last few unnecessary blows would she have gone down for it?

Are the ROE... "In case of penetration... you are cleared to kill?"

I look at it like this, rape is a crime of violence as is ATTEMPTED RAPE. Violence in the cause of self defense is a no brainer. Today if the potential victim of a rape had a firearm at hand and used it to stop the attacker and the attacker died in most jurisdictions (except in some uber-liberal bastions) that would be considered justifiable homicide.

If Honor had delivered a fatal blow, breaking Pavel's neck for instance or driving nasal bone fragments into his brain I think the location of the act (shower), time of day (evening,) and other pertinent facts would probably lead the investigating Master at Arms and investigating officer to conclude this death was as a result of self defense.

I would be concerned about how this death, probably the first at her hands, would affect her and damage her psyche even after a court of inquiry exonerated her. Death witnessed close up and personal, especially death delivered by one's own hand is extremely traumatic, the first one especially so.

The trauma might even cause her to re-think a military / naval career.

Can't argue with any of your points and I have to agree. And I smile at your extraordinary insight. A smile not simply because we agree, Tester knows everyone knows that I don't mind being on the lone side of the fence for sake of conversation and or truth, at the possible expense of another of my threads being unceremoniously "beaked" by the Duckk.

Lost count on how many of them have suffered the RSOD (Red Screen of Death) Topic Over! fate.

Not so funny how I seem to have seen that fate more often than I've seen Miscrosoft's BSOD (Blue Screen of Death!)

'sigh'.

My threads seem to be tasty to the Duckk, or unpalatable. I suppose Duckks don't enjoy being taken too close to the edge of the "Can we talk, Joan River's?," pond.

And oftentimes I immeasurably end up governing how far and fast I can drive adults in a conversation. Which is limiting. And sad.

Another 'sigh.'

But because your thought emphasizes and reflects my sentiment in a post in the "Ramblings" thread where I shared acquired information regarding the vetting process taking on a psychological turn because of certain circumstances. I would imagine that with Honor taking her first life -- even if with a weapon like a pulsar, but certainly if using her bare hands -- would surely offer cause for her to be checked (vetted) for psychological damage.

My reservation, or uncertainty rather, is in factoring in the intuitive and possible legal differences between our present day society and that of the Honorverse. And leaving room for any needed leeway caused by any unassuming truths. E.g., I didn't want to overlook the possibility that the laws may be a bit different in the Honorverse, in the manner that reflects the existence of enhanced humans. There is a thing even in our own society called undue force.

Here on Earth in the present, self defense is not a viable legal defense if there is no actual danger. The law says that you are allowed to protect yourself up to but not including the moment that an attacker is of no more threat to you and you can "escape." You cannot simply kill just because you can.

I am not saying that I believe that that would be the case here.

I'm simply bringing it to the discussion that in the Honorverse the laws may be a bit different where adult humans like San Martinos are built like mountains and their young are built like tanks and bringing up the rear are Sphinxians who can eat a stack of fifty pancakes before, during and after kicking your ass.

After all, an adult female from San Martin who is also proficient at hand to hand combat relying on a "legal defense against murder" that includes the notion that she "felt threatened" from a Pavel Young may evoke more than a bit of AST NISHMENT, rustling in the seats of the jurors.

I'm just saying.

Little wonder that I don't recall textev supporting any of the traditional Terran contact sports. Heck, just hugging a San Martino would be a contact sport!

What about normal kids or adults simply playing around? If one friend hails from San Martin and the other from Manticore, how do the dynamics fair between the two? Most of us have experienced friends that like it physical. Now imagine you're a normal Terran and that friend is from San Martin. Can a normal human handle rough-housing with kids from San Martin? Would San Martinos be allowed to play NFL football or hockey with Terrans?

Remember the Refrigerator Perry? "The Fridge!"

I imagine San Martin would have football players called Forklift Fred. If he grabs you, you're going for a ride. If a play results in a San Martin linebacker hitting a quarterback, that quarterback better, at the very least, be from a heavy world too or that very first hit will result in a "He's out, call in the stretcher."

"Out for the game, doc?"

"He's out for the season!"

"It's the first play of the first game?!"... Doc?!?"

.

cthia wrote:Can't argue with any of your points and I have to agree. And I smile at your extraordinary insight. A smile not simply because we agree, Tester knows everyone knows that I don't mind being on the lone side of the fence for sake of conversation and or truth, at the possible expense of another of my threads being unceremoniously "beaked" by the Duckk.

Lost count on how many of them have suffered the RSOD (Red Screen of Death) Topic Over! fate.

Not so funny how I seem to have seen that fate more often than I've seen Miscrosoft's BSOD (Blue Screen of Death!)

'sigh'.

My threads seem to be tasty to the Duckk, or unpalatable. I suppose Duckks don't enjoy being taken too close to the edge of the "Can we talk, Joan River's?," pond.

And oftentimes I immeasurably end up governing how far and fast I can drive adults in a conversation. Which is limiting. And sad.

Another 'sigh.'

But because your thought emphasizes and reflects my sentiment in a post in the "Ramblings" thread where I shared acquired information regarding the vetting process taking on a psychological turn because of certain circumstances. I would imagine that with Honor taking her first life -- even if with a weapon like a pulsar, but certainly if using her bare hands -- would surely offer cause for her to be checked (vetted) for psychological damage.

My remarks on the possible psychological damage comes from 2nd hand knowledge. Even though I served a full career in the Navy the closest I ever got to combat was watching 2 battleships light up the Kuwaiti sky at night, I was 20 miles further off shore than they were and in hearing the "BOOM" when the USS Tripoli swept up a contact mine the old fashioned way, with her hull and not the mine sweeping gear her helos were utilizing. No one hurt, thank you God.

But serving with or in the company of Marines and others trained in ground combat one tends to pick up bits of information that tickles the curiosity bumps. I cracked open some texts.

A good deal of combat related PTSD tends to come not so much from personal danger but from witnessing others being gathered in by the Grim Reaper, especially when that gathering is done as a result of your actions, a trigger pulled or button pushed. You sometimes hear that mentioned in war movies or when reading "combat porn."

My reservation, or uncertainty rather, is in factoring in the intuitive and possible legal differences between our present day society and that of the Honorverse. And leaving room for any needed leeway caused by any unassuming truths. E.g., I didn't want to overlook the possibility that the laws may be a bit different in the Honorverse -- a difference that reflects the existence of enhanced humans. There is a thing even in our own society called undue force.

Here on Earth in the present, self defense is not a legal defense if there is no actual danger. The law says that you are allowed to protect yourself up to but not including the moment that an attacker is of no more threat to you and you can "escape." You cannot simply kill them just because you can.

I am not saying that I believe that would be the case here.

I'm simply bringing it to the discussion that in the Honorverse the laws may be a bit different. Where adult humans like San Martinos are built like mountains and their young are built like tanks and bringing up the rear are Sphinxians who can eat a stack of fifty pancakes before, during and after kicking your ass.

After all, an adult female from San Martin who is also proficient at hand to hand combat relying on a "legal defense of murder" that she "felt threatened" from a Pavel Young may evoke more than a bit of AST NISHED rustling in the seats of the jurors.

I'm just saying.

Little wonder that I don't recall textev supporting any of the traditional Terran contact sports. Heck, just hugging a San Martino would be a contact sport!

What about normal kids or adults simply playing around? If one friend hails from San Martin and the other from Manticore, how do the dynamics fair between the two? Most of us have experienced friends that like it physical. Now imagine you're a normal Terran and that friend is a San Martino. Can a normal human handle rough-housing with kids from San Martino? Would San Martinos be allowed to play NFL football or hockey with Terrans?

Remember the Refrigerator Perry? "The Fridge!"

I remember "The Fridge." Him hitting me would have been like a truck hitting a very small speed bump.

I imagine San Martinos would have football players called Forklift Fred. He grabs ya, you're going for a ride. If a play results in a San Martino linebacker hitting a quarterback, that quarterback better, at the very least, be from a heavy world too or that very first hit would result in a "He's out, call in the stretcher."

"Out for the game, doc?"

"He's out for the season!"

"It's the first play of the first game?!"... Doc?!?"

Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.

Fox2! wrote:

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.

IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

He knew she was on the unarmed combat team, but...

He dismissed her abilities and class ranking as being "the teacher's pet."

He disregarded unarmed combat as a fancy form of exercise; he didn't consider unarmed combat as having any real purpose.

Most of his lack of good Intel on Honor was the result of a lack of personal intelligence and an overabundance of arrogance.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

He knew she was on the unarmed combat team, but...

He dismissed her abilities and class ranking as being "the teacher's pet."

He disregarded unarmed combat as a fancy form of exercise; he didn't consider unarmed combat as having any real purpose.

Most of his lack of good Intel on Honor was the result of a lack of personal intelligence and an overabundance of arrogance.

Agreed. If anything, his actions showed lack of ability to analyze tactical situations and poor tactical decision making skills.

For-ex : Treecat=Sphinx=High Gravity=Heavy Worlder? That question should come naturally to anyone in the Manticore system with an average IQ.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Pavel did do some basic intell gathering, just not enough. He found out about her late night gym sessions and had someone drug Nimitz. But the really important stuff like the fact that she was a heavy worlder and on the unarmed combat team not a clue.

He knew she was on the unarmed combat team, but...

He dismissed her abilities and class ranking as being "the teacher's pet."

He disregarded unarmed combat as a fancy form of exercise; he didn't consider unarmed combat as having any real purpose.

Most of his lack of good Intel on Honor was the result of a lack of personal intelligence and an overabundance of arrogance.

Theemile wrote:Agreed. If anything, his actions showed lack of ability to analyze tactical situations and poor tactical decision making skills.

For-ex : Treecat=Sphinx=High Gravity=Heavy Worlder? That question should come naturally to anyone in the Manticore system with an average IQ.

There it is!

Prepared this post even before consuming yours, Theemile. Excellent!...

The one thing that he didn't know that I don't know how he couldn't have known this one thing that everyone should have known...

Honor is a heavy worlder!

How could he or anyone not have known that? The first question anyone asks prompted by the human element even here on Earth right now is... "Where is she from? She looks a bit exotic?"

It is as if Young wasn't even aware that heavy worlders actually existed!

And like you said, she was bonded and he seemed to hate Nimitz. I can't say whether that applied to all 'Cats as far as he was concerned or simply Nimitz who was in his way, but he should have known that 'Cats are from Sphinx!

Damn Young! His head was wedged so far up his arse that his brain was starved for oxygen!

He may not have been charged with knowing that pole-cats aren't from Pole-land but treecats sure as hell are from Sphinx! It's a no brainer. Meaning that even if you don't have a brain, it's a given!

Or perhaps Young simply walked around life with his Lordlier than though snobbish nose thrust so far up in the air that the oxygen was thin up there.

ANOTHER HUGE HINT, that he did know but ignored it. "She liked to crank the grav plates up!"

"Duh, which way did he go?"

"Which way did who go?"

"My brain."

Fox2! wrote:

robert132 wrote:
Obviously Pavel didn't pay attention in the classes which discussed Sun Tzu's teachings. He ignored the rule that says "Know your enemy (or target.) Learn all you can about him (her.)" If he had he would either -

a) have come at the problem (Honor) differently, or
b) said "screw it, it ain't worth the danger of busted bones and rearranged teeth to moi."

Very poor "Intelligence Preparation of the Battlespace"

-Heavy worlder
"Genie" modified for that, and similar, heavy world environment
-Unarmed combat demonstration team trained under Saganami Marines

Of course she's going to throw his over-bred body around the shower like a 'cat going through a rabbit den. Plus she's naked and has short hair, so there's nothing for him to catch hold of. Even if he does manage to grab something, she's wet and soapy, so she's going to slide right out of his grasp.

Of course, he did the same thing what, thirty years later, along with the late unlamented Denver Sumervale, in not realizing that she had spent the entire time returning to Manticore from Grayson in the ship's range, probably using up an entire year's allotment of 10 mm. Never mind Uncle Jacque and his friends from SCA.

Plus!

She had the plates cranked up! Any man knows that if you piss off a woman that no matter where she is in the home she's going to find a plate or two to toss at you! Honor even found plates in the gym! LOL

I think it was my sister (psychologist) who once told me that there is an area of the human brain that is responsible for controlling a natural reflex action that immediately causes you to instinctively reach out and grab hold of something beautiful and or shiny that overrides your thought processes. It even works in infants. It is why there are so many fingerprints on the glass enclosure of a jewelry store that clearly sports a "Do not lean on or touch glass" sign. Because the shiny baubles engage the auto reflex action before reading.

Young saw something naked and beautiful. Naked wet breasts are beautiful and shiny, and textev indicated that Young indicated that something inside of Honor changed when he reached out to grab her...

"Breastesses! Preeeetty!"

Kabooom!

"What happened guys? Did I slip and fall?"

"Yep, long ago when you were a kid! Right on your phucking head!"