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Detweiler and Sons

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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by pappilon   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:25 am

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ldwechsler wrote: The problem is that morality is not always simple. The Dets think that humanity needs improvement. At the point the novels are set, the differences seem more qualitative than anything else. Honor is pretty well augmented.

The Dets want to improve mankind. Take a look at most reformers. That's what they want. The Dets and followers see their opposition as crazed folk who want to keep people down.

We have a lot of situations like that now and they are not often settled to everyone's satisfaction. Instead of a major political international battle, look at public worker pensions.

The pensions of public workers can be very large in some places. In New York City, if you worked 20 years when I began many years ago, you would make about half pay for the rest of your life. A worker got 1.2 percent per year more for the next ten years and 1.7 percent per year after that. If you actually worked 40 years you would make more than 80 percent a year for the rest of your life. And since social security would not be taken out and you would not be taxed by the New York State government, you might well take home even more money than you did working.

I worked 36 years and did well. But my nice pension is an underfunded account. If things go down, a lot of people will be paying extra taxes to keep me going strong.

The burdens are becoming gigantic for states, running into tens of billions of underfunding and in a couple of big states running past a hundred billion.

I earned that money. Others may wind up supporting me and hurting themselves by doing so. I think I have morality on my side and cities and school districts going broke feel that their tax rates are already too high and it is immoral to demand more.

Things are not simple.

The Dets feel they have the right path and that those who oppose them are immoral.


Morality is simple; it is straightforward. Morality is black and white.

Travis Uriah Long is the epitome of morality. Unfortunately, he lives a black and white life in a greater shades of gray world.

The Detweillers also have a Black and white moral compass. They, fortunately for them, live in a black and white world. They, like everyone else have their place in it.

When worlds collide ...
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 am

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Well put for both of the previous two posts. In the main, this is what I am trying to say.

A couple of things to add though. Any morality that does not take into account the well being of people outside the immediate circle of my concern or my group is, at least from a Christian point of view, wrong and can be labeled evil. To be moral one has to broaden ones circle of concern to include the entire human family.

How that is to be implemented is where things can become complicated to the point of seeming impossible. But the underlying princiiple of inclusion is clear enough.

Where the Detweilers have gone astray is that in their zeal for an improved humanity, they are leaving out everyone who is not "improved." This doesn't even begin to get into what they have done with slavery.

So even though they are capable of good and moral behavior within the context of their own tribe, the overall goals and the means that they are willing to use to accomplish those goals can well and truly be labeled "evil."

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Peregrinator   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:47 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:The Dets feel they have the right path and that those who oppose them are immoral.

That the Detweilers in particular and the Mesan Alignment in general think that they're moral is not at all relevant to whether they are actually moral.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by pappilon   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:43 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:The Dets feel they have the right path and that those who oppose them are immoral.

That the Detweilers in particular and the Mesan Alignment in general think that they're moral is not at all relevant to whether they are actually moral.



And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?

Seems to me, from my observations, that there are two distinct "christianities" and that they pray to two entirely distinct and different gods. One even has rather heated ecumenical discussions over who is and who is not included as "Christian." One seeks to nt include the wider not us as morally relevant, or perhaps merely less morally relevant, and the othr that does try to be inclusive. From your post I know which house to sort you into.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:41 pm

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pappilon wrote:

And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?

Seems to me, from my observations, that there are two distinct "christianities" and that they pray to two entirely distinct and different gods. One even has rather heated ecumenical discussions over who is and who is not included as "Christian." One seeks to nt include the wider not us as morally relevant, or perhaps merely less morally relevant, and the othr that does try to be inclusive. From your post I know which house to sort you into.


Perhaps you need a new category. The tension you have observed is even older than the church going all the way back into pre-Christian Judaism. For me the question is how to be as inclusive as possible without straying from the classical Christian faith.

Everyone's journey should respected. Faith comes through witness and pursuasion, not coercion. But respect is not the same thing as agreement. I certainly am not infallible and have a great many questions that can only be answered on the other side. But in this life my commitment is to biblical Christianity as we Lutherans have understood that: we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental that makes us Christians.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by pappilon   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:
pappilon wrote:

And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?

Seems to me, from my observations, that there are two distinct "christianities" and that they pray to two entirely distinct and different gods. One even has rather heated ecumenical discussions over who is and who is not included as "Christian." One seeks to nt include the wider not us as morally relevant, or perhaps merely less morally relevant, and the othr that does try to be inclusive. From your post I know which house to sort you into.


Perhaps you need a new category. The tension you have observed is even older than the church going all the way back into pre-Christian Judaism. For me the question is how to be as inclusive as possible without straying from the classical Christian faith.

Everyone's journey should respected. Faith comes through witness and pursuasion, not coercion. But respect is not the same thing as agreement. I certainly am not infallible and have a great many questions that can only be answered on the other side. But in this life my commitment is to biblical Christianity as we Lutherans have understood that: we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental that makes us Christians. Don
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My comment was aimed at Peregrinator. I totally agree with you. My agnosticism has lead me to a "Big Black Thingy" which bears -0- resemblance to either of the Christian gods or the several Judaic ones. I respect all spiritual journeys, and all travellers. Indeed, my spiritual calling was to aid "all the sheep who are not content lying beside still waters, but who get lost along the thorny paths in the desert."

Unfortunately, there are those who insist that the the best path for them "as individuals" must therefore be the best path for "all." Apparently there are multiple gods and monotheism merely means we can only believe in one at a time.

The Detweillers do have a moral code, regardless of who agrees with it or not. I do not wish to live in a world subject to that code, but, there I am.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Peregrinator   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:32 pm

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pappilon wrote:And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?

I don't dictate anything - simply pointing out that morality is objective. Do we debate over whether murder is wrong? That someone thinks it might not be wrong, or not always wrong, or can be justified for some reason, does not in the least bit change the fact that it is wrong.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:49 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:
pappilon wrote:And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?

I don't dictate anything - simply pointing out that morality is objective. Do we debate over whether murder is wrong? That someone thinks it might not be wrong, or not always wrong, or can be justified for some reason, does not in the least bit change the fact that it is wrong.


Morality may be objective, but there is no way to avoid the reality that it is subjectively applied.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by pappilon   » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:18 am

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pappilon wrote:And who are you to dictate the morality of the universe?


Peregrinator wrote:I don't dictate anything - simply pointing out that morality is objective. Do we debate over whether murder is wrong? That someone thinks it might not be wrong, or not always wrong, or can be justified for some reason, does not in the least bit change the fact that it is wrong.


n7axw wrote:Morality may be objective, but there is no way to avoid the reality that it is subjectively applied.

Don
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Morality is polar. There is only moral and immoral, choosing the good or choosing the bad. The real world is whiter shades of pale. The infamous decalogue sayeth "Thou shalt not Kill." Nowhere doth it proclaim: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

Why is a White cop in Ferguson MO not being charged with murder for shooting an unarmed Black man, yet a Black cop in Mimmeapolis MN being charged for the murder of a White woman? Morality must either be racisr or sexist. Or as a society, we do not have a clear moral compass, or somehow morality is not as clear as we wish it to be.

We I( as a species) have punched all kinds of holes in "Thou shalt not kill." Starting with Moslems do not kill Moslems. Which is not extensed to Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus. Only now it is apparrently, Shi'ites shall not kill shi'ites, but killing Sunni is ok.

We've cut out exemptions for war, capital punishment, abortion, self-defense, accidents ...

So, yeah keep going on about how Morality is objective. It is more a slippery slope called situation ethics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:50 am

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pappilon wrote:
The infamous decalogue sayeth "Thou shalt not Kill." Nowhere doth it proclaim: "Thou shalt not commit murder."


Actually, there is discussion, at least in some circles, that the original text was, "Thou shalt not murder". See, for example the discussion on Wiki at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

I know, Wiki. Take it with the requisite grain (or train) of salt.
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