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Detweiler and Sons

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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:32 pm

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Annachie wrote:Yes, but old Albretch is likely part of the planning board.

Or was and subsequently handed that role to one of his sons when they were old enough.

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Why on Earth (or at least Mesa) would Albrecht be a member of the LRPB?

The LRPB seems to be an operational unit: they've got a specific charge to manage genetic improvement among the "star lines," that is, the alpha, beta and gamma lines within the Alignment. The only person we know is a member is a doctor or biological scientist.

Albrecht is policy and grand strategy, not operations. If anyone in the Detweiller family was a member when the decision to clone him was made, it would have been Evilina. If any of the clones are on the board at the time of SoV, it would be Everett, who is the research director for biological weapons.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:04 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
Annachie wrote:Yes, but old Albretch is likely part of the planning board.

Or was and subsequently handed that role to one of his sons when they were old enough.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Why on Earth (or at least Mesa) would Albrecht be a member of the LRPB?

The LRPB seems to be an operational unit: they've got a specific charge to manage genetic improvement among the "star lines," that is, the alpha, beta and gamma lines within the Alignment. The only person we know is a member is a doctor or biological scientist.

Albrecht is policy and grand strategy, not operations. If anyone in the Detweiller family was a member when the decision to clone him was made, it would have been Evilina. If any of the clones are on the board at the time of SoV, it would be Everett, who is the research director for biological weapons.
My bold to call attention.

For the same reason a CEO is on the Board of Directors.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:22 am

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cthia wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:One of the consequences of Houdini that doesn't seem to have been discussed, is the death of Albrecht Detweiler on Mesa, and the consequences for the leadership of the Alignment.
It's fairly clear that prior to Albrecht Detweiler, that Detweiler "family unit" was (probably) only a single child pre-generation and therefore the transfer of leadership was clear cut but Albrecht Detweiler had three sons and therefore I'm wondering:...
Weird Harold wrote:1: There were Six sons, not three. They were named earlier in this thread, but I have trouble remembering my own name sometimes. :D

2: As far as 99% of the Onion is concerned, the leader of the MAlign is "Alpha One." Benjamin, Albrecht's "number one son", can simply issue orders as "Alpha One" and very few will know the difference.

3: The general assumption is that the succession of "Alpha One" would go in alphabetical order -- Benjamin, then Colin, and so on down to Gervais. Each of the sons (clones, actually) had responsibility for a specific area of the MAlign -- Admin, R&D, Security/Espionage, etc. IIRC, there is Textev for all of their areas of responsibility.

4: I don't think that the Renaissance Factor will be materially disrupted by Albrecht's death. The leaders of the RF did know Albrecht and at least some of his sons, but they should be satisfied with the Succession as long as the sons stay in control. If the Detweiler line is eliminated -- i.e. all six sons and their progeny are eliminated somehow -- then the RF might fragment or fall to some internal power struggle. As long as there is a Detweiler to succeed to "Alpha One," even if it takes a regency council, the RF will proceed according to the master plan.
Theemile wrote:Even if every Detweiller dies, they are clones of the Detweiller lineage. You can't tell me that there isn't a backup or 7 in labs somewhere. True believers could grow a new Hitle.... I mean Detweiller at will, at any time. Heck, there could be another fetus in stasis, ready to go if needed. The question would be who indoctrinat....I mean raises the child to be the new leader. The inducing power structure over who raises and influences the new Detweiller will probably be the biggest power struggle if the remaining Detweilers were eliminated.
JohnRoth wrote:It's not just a matter of there being backups in the labs. The Detweiller line has a lot of Family knowledge and attitude that's passed down from parents to children. An Albrecht Detweiller clone raised somewhere else than the Detweiller Family and in a different social situation (Darius instead of Mesa, for example) would have a rather different view of what needs to be done and how to go about doing it.

There would also be a significant gap of at least two and more likely four decades before a newly created clone would be able to take over. There's a weight of events there.

There is a designated successor. We don't know who it is, but Albrecht specified it, and I would expect that everyone on level 2 (that is, the people who know Albrecht personally) knows who it is. Practically, it's got to be either Benjamin or Colin - we have barely heard of Daniel and Everett, the two research heads, and all we know about Franklin and Gervais is their names.

Also, Albrecht said that they are safe on Darius, but Rufino C. is waiting for them to arrive with Albrecht. Whether or not they actually did is a dangling thread.

* It's that dreaded human element raising its ugly head again in my mind. Albrecht was the one who chose his successor. Problem is, do all of the sons agree—internally, and not just for the record? I think the potential for a power struggle lies amongst the sons.

The same thing happens when a particular child is pre-picked by the parents to handle a massive estate in the event of their death, timely or otherwise. Families have been falling apart in these scenarios since the beginning. It is as if all of the human element is removed from the Detweilers. It is easy for the sons to capitulate when the thought is just a notion that one thinks won't really ever happen but when daddy's death turns into reality, that is when the true colors of all of the participants and the frayed stitching around the edges begin to show.

The sons trusted their father. They don't necessarily trust their brothers to run such a complicated ship themselves. Each of the five brothers are supposed to not question the brother who now has the helm, and they are not supposed to have their own ideas as a course of action to take? They are not supposed to have any emotional trauma from daddy being dead? Or ideas of their own on how to proceed?

Albrecht had a vision, no doubt. But only he saw it as clearly as he did. Of course, he can groom a son to replace him, but do we really believe that cloning would give the successor son the same thought patterns as patient zero? When the plan is visited by Murphy after daddy is dead and an unforeseen monkey wrench is thrown into the mix, then the successor is supposed to be able to automagically make the right call? The MAlignment game isn't a paint by the numbers project.

If Albrecht had died prior to the circumstances that led to Oyster Bay, would the replacement have followed the same course? Or would he have bumbled the call?

I think that a power struggle would be amongst the sons.


* By the way, this "human element" that I speak of so often, is brilliantly introduced in the movie "Sully" starring Tom Hanks. Two thumbs up and a snap!...

https://youtu.be/mjKEXxO2KNE


Edit: grammar: does => do
Second edit: Ton => Tom
Third or more edit: More grammar, typos. Ugh!

.
Greentea wrote:There is nothing more damaging to a family than the loss of the undisputed matriarch or patriarch. Ugly things tend to happen, like factions forming in the various family branches, inheritance disputes, feuds. Even when the loss does not have any violent consequences, things are just different, everything seems wrong, and the new leadership will have some hiccups.

My own family had something like this happen when my grandmother died in 2001. Since her death, there have been no major feuds, but two of my uncles had their marriages fall apart one of which also put my aunt and her husband right in the middle of it (basically, Jane Jones married John Smith and Jack Jones married Jill Smith, then Jack and Jill had an ugly divorce), and a lot of other minor things that wouldn't have happened while she was alive to keep a lid on things.

The whole onion is going to be dangerously weakened while they are on the run. If their disappearing act is successful they may be able to stabilize things before the GA catches up to them, but they are in for a rough couple of years in which lying low is the best strategy.

Indeed. Familiarity is one thing that is lost. Certainty is lost. Mental and emotional support is lost. Etc. And then there's the normal component of coming face to face with one's own mortality. The passing of a matriarch represents the passing of Plymouth rock. The sword in the stone. Solid ground.

But in this instance it is even more magnified. Or certainly would be to the average human. Albrecht Detweiler was his sons entire existence. He is all they knew. He was the center of their entire sheltered universe. And he died unceremoniously and untimely. This has to be a supremely painful experience for the sons. There must be a solemn and cavernous emptiness. And their mother was lost as well. For the average human, there would be a hole left where daddy was so big it would be debilitating. In the sons case, the hole is the whole. It is mind-boggling how the Detweiler paradigm is so different. Similar in concept, I imagine, to Frankenstein being lost without Dr. Frankenstein.

If your entire life is the military and suddenly the military is gone, you are at a loss for what to do. As the problem faced by many veterans. The Detweiler sons will either be lost and need direction or pour themselves into their work becoming the super soldiers they are meant to be. The Khans, the Kirks, the Spocks and the Salamanders of the Honorverse.

Detweiler's vision could surprise us and work out. If it does work out, things could get a lot worse for the GA before it gets better. And the GA could ultimately find itself needing that bad worm of a Detweiler.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Driverless cars
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:44 am

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One problem has been cited of a company wanting to have a design of "semi-autonomous" control. They realize that there are just some variables that you cannot foresee and in those instances (human instances—human element) their semi-autonomous design would return control back to the human.

Wait! What? WTF! ... scratch that! WHAT THE PHUCK!

Conversation replayed on the little black box...

"Don't give control back to me now!"

"But I'm drunk now."

"I'm in the back seat! Never mind what we're doing in the back seat!"

"No no no Siri! Do not return control! Noooo! Oh shit!"

Semi-autonomous designs suddenly make you into a designated driver. Do you have any idea of the responsibility of a designated driver? Where unlike the regular driver, a designated driver has to be ready at a moment's notice, without prior planning to actually drive! If I have to pay attention as alertly as if I was driving, then I may as well be driving... or the human element says I am NOT going to be paying attention and therefore in no position to assume control! Life is not a video game.

No one else sees the insanity of this?

With the craziness of technology and life on Earth nowadays and factoring in the insanity of politics... I'd get off of this planet on an alien spaceship if I had the chance.

"Alien to Mothership, please rendezvous and collect me at specified coordinates. These human MFs are getting reaaaaally crazy! They've gone way past WTF!"

Very late addendum:

It is believed that there is at least one spaceship that crashed on Earth and recovered in Roswell. If that is so, the reason it crashed most assuredly had to be because the moment it entered Earth's atmosphere it had to contend with the human element.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:08 am

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If the Wiki informant is to be believed these are the responsibilities of Detweiler's sons...

Benjamin - A citizen of Mesa and a member of the Strategy Committee. Benjamin controlled the Mesa Alignment Navy.

Collin - Director of Intelligence Operations. Married to Alexis Detweiler and had several children.

Daniel - the Alignment's Director of Non-Genetic Research R&D.

Everett - Director of Genetic Research and development.

Franklin - Director of Political Strategy.

Gervais - Director of Foreign Affairs.

Someone upstream intimated that Benjamin may be the one to inherit the reins. If so, he is also the clone with control of the Navy.


On a side note, we have not entertained the psychological ramifications of the difference in their specializations clashing at the height of each clone being all that they can be—as Alphas, and the possible contention arising between the inevitable incompatibility of the "absolute truths" of each discipline.

D&E have overlapping areas of responsibility. It and they could clash.

Same with F&G.

Collin, the Director of Intelligence (the CIA) could clash with Benjamin, who is essentially the President. Sound familiar?

Collin has sons. I wonder if the clones could have chosen for their kids to be clones as well, thus following in father's footsteps?

If the LRPB would not allow it, then why? Would it be because they see potential problems inherent in having clones?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:29 am

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Collin of any other of the clones having sons (or daughters) could be for a lot of reasons. One is the perception that a next generation of leadership is the children of the earlier one. That isn't quite so important with the Alignment as everybody inside it "knows" that the children are provided by direction of the LRPB and are essententialy constructed to the Plan. It does, however, provide socialization of said generation withing a framework of a Detweiler family.

We don't, that I can recall, have any evidence of discussion of replicant/clone fading in the series. Other SF story lines have introduced the idea that multi-generational series of clones without introduction of new DNA leads to problems, at least physical ones if not psycological/mental ones. Usually it seems to be like too many copies from the same mold with the pattern getting out of tolerance.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:03 pm

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Doesn't Colin also have a wife? So with children, the wife was likely assigned by the LRPB, as with Detweiler senior and his wife where they took the extra time to try extra hard to get proper matching, while also looking to continue slowly evolving the genome.

Just because it's a Detweiler genome doesn't mean it's locked, as they did consider trying a Detweiler/Bardasano pairing, although I don't recall if that happened or they decided not to after thinking about it.


Benjamin certainly seems the logical choice for next in line, as we saw him very frequently consulting with Detweiler senior, and he was being involved in many decisions, which is very much the opposite echo of what Klaus Hauptmann and his father did. Klaus was barely involved at all, a mere middling manager of the Hautpmann Cartel when his father died and he'd thought he was ready to control the whole thing, leading to a rollercoaster and his decision to involve Stacey Hauptmann early.

His brothers may not exactly agree, since if they're all clones from the same original person, they all have the same genetic superiority to take the reins. But that also generally should indicate they're smart enough to know that since Benjamin received 90% of the real grooming, and how close to the endgame of the Detweiler Plan is, rocking the boat now is A Bad Idea. They'd have no opportunity to try to seize control until after they openly reveal that as Detweilers, they are rulers of the known worlds.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by Louis R   » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:48 pm

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The word Albrecht used was 'evaluated'. Which I thought nothing of at the time, but knowing more of the Alignment's methodology now I have to wonder if that shouldn't be taken literally: that there isn't a real live little person running on a hamster cage somewhere down in the LRPB's labs.

Somtaaw wrote:< snip >

Just because it's a Detweiler genome doesn't mean it's locked, as they did consider trying a Detweiler/Bardasano pairing, although I don't recall if that happened or they decided not to after thinking about it.


< snip >
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by WeirdlyWired   » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:00 pm

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Closest thing in real life we have to clones are the multiple identical births. They are not clones but they do share identical DNA. They each have their own personalities and likes/dislikes, skill sets and natural proclivities.

It is possible, regardless odf how unlikely that the clone sorted themselves into the positions in the Alignment that they have, or rather Albrecht did based on their natural individual bents. Afer all the onionis more of a meritocracy than a Soviet inspired, plug the next person in line into the next slot available.

Closes thing in other fiction is Orphan Black. and No way Alison is going to try to depose Sarah as leader of the pack. Helena might, but, again, I think not.
Helas,chou, Je m'en fache.
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Re: Detweiler and Sons
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:08 pm

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Leonard Detweiler was the founding father of the entire mess. That would make the LRPB somewhat a product of him. No?

We need more input regarding the LRPB. Is it mentioned where they are based? I wonder if they were based out of Mesa and was one of the components relocated via Houdini.

I ask because it seems that they would need to keep in contact with humanity outside of the Alignment.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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