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THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!

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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:44 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:A lot of interesting stuff here.

I've a thought. RFC could take things in a whole nother direction ripe with potential "tum te tums."

What if the MAlign chose to tackle the problem from another angle - well within their capabilities which is also in keeping with who they are. Instead of trying to crack Manticore's miniaturization tech and bridge the gap in capabilities, they could just as easily close the gap or even surpass the capabilities of Apollo by developing the next generation in smart missiles by developing the "truly intelligent" missile.

What if the MAlign, with their superior intellect, develop a completely new paradigm in computer capability which comes from the programming language itself coupled with a twist. What if their tech is based around a completely new and advanced computer system that itself is capable of more advanced thought.
Certainly there are some possibilities there; but RFC has been fairly clear that, like high tech aliens, he doesn't want truly sentient AIs in the Honorverse. (He has other series for that) However even without human brain (or better) level sentient thought there's still plenty of room for further improvements to onboard 'intelligent systems'.

But I'd guess that compute power alone won't be enough to make a revolutionary breakthrough in long range missile fire; not without some kind of networking or flocking behavior to let the missiles coordinate attacks (which the Apollo control missile does in a limited fashion for it's 8 slaved missiles) - but there's a slight risk that once missiles start talking to each other, rather than just their launch ships, that it opens up the possibility of hacking into that ad-hoc network and screwing with the missiles. Plus you don't want their emissions to be easily tracked or it simplifies defense against them.
So I think what you'd want is a highly jamming resistant LPI (low probbility of intercept) network; which could let the missiles do several things to improve their capabilities:
1) The missiles or torps could receive updates directly from recon drones (quite possibly spider powered recon drones, or even manned Ghosts that lack the tactical section and fire control links to directly handle terminal attack guidance of large missile swarms)

2) The missiles can act as sparse arrays to improve their collective view of the targets - useful since the sensors you can fit onto the nose of a missile or torp are necessarily much smaller and less sensative than the giant shipboard sensor arrays. That lets them keep an (ever improving) eye on the target from launch to terminal attack run so guard against (as much as possible) decoy shell games during their long flight.

3) Initial waves could send info back to follow up waves on the ECM they saw, whether or not they sucessfully looked through that ECM, the target's current emissions signature and location, etc. That would give the computers on the follow on waves timely information from which to update their attack plans. The vastly reduced latency should compensate quite a lot for the fact that at any given computer tech level you can afford to put more data storage and processing on a multi-megaton ship than you can on a 10 ton missile.

So a more capable computer, yes, but also fed with more and better information to apply that power to.

Fair enough -- RFC not wanting to take the series there. Regardless of whether the mechanisms and tools to accomplish it are already emplaced.

And, as long as we take care not to confuse the idea of computing power in the normal sense (calculations per second) or clock speed with the power of nondeterministic thinking. As I'm sure you know, the end result is incomparable.

Just the idea of "grown and harvested brains" interfaced into a missile for unprecedented control is mindboggling. Not to mention downright freaky. It turns my stomach that the brilliance of a culture could and would harvest brains that would exist in an enclosure. To live out existence knowing only ...? Then shot downrange to kill and to die. The power of something like that could greatly enhance ECM. That would also mimic the Germans' attempt at a manned submarine missile. If there were a mechanism for them to talk to each other, the "intelligent missiles" could briefly touch bases for a "wolfpack" mentality of missiles. The power of the brain harnessed in parallel? :o

Sentient Microchip Technology.

Trying to second guess what sub weaponry, ideals and tactics RFC will choose to impart into the Lenny's enticing. Surely he'll employ some form of the wolfpack tactic. I wonder if the Streak boat can be deployed as a communication portal between LDs to facilitate wolfpacking, like the communication loop the German Uboats used to call other subs in the area when a bogey spotted.



Hmm, I wonder what a sentient microchip would look like under an electron microscope?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:42 pm

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Guys, what do we KNOW about the Lenny Detts?

1) they are large.
2) they have (or are supposed to have) internal capasity and launching capabilty for tht GTs
3) they have spyder drive.

That is it.
They-we are also told- need the crews trained and being trained on the Sharks as crews. That MAY be interprited as they will need the same skill sets as the Shark crews to manuver to Deploy the GT and to operate without observation within targeted systems.
It MAY be that they will do their own target data collection and so function as the Ghosts but that is not yet clear.
WE DO NOT YET KNOW OF ANY OTHER "NEW" WEAPONS" OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS OR OTHER MA SPECIFIC TECH THAT IS INVOLVED IN THE LD'S.

It is POSSIBLE that the LDs MAY be used for preemptive infrastructure strikes on targets of the RF BUT that would mean that -fairly quickly- systems would figure out that an OB type of attack would be a prelude to a more standard attack by "conventional" forcer.

The nominal initial targets of the LDs were scrubbed in favor of hitting Manticore and Grayson rather than also including the great number of Haven yard/suject system infrastructures. Not clear (to me) that the Aldermani were intended as an early/primary LD target.

Can the LDs engage, in an OB fashion, existing warships that are not already parked at stations or in long-term parking orbits? Sure. The challage is how long do they get to a) infltrate a system, b) develope tarteting data, c) deploy the active (GT) and passive (ballistic) weapons packages before the coordianted impactd of said weapons. The problem is-and was- that once things began blowing up, anything that could move would be trying to move & bring up defensive systems (like wedge & sidewalls) ASOP and your window to hit a "parked" space ship would be limited to how long it's crew takes to discover (or is notified) that SOMETING IS HAPPENING and to both bring up wedge and active defenses.

Obviously the Alignment has a planned use for the LDs but exactly what is still an open question
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:42 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Guys, what do we KNOW about the Lenny Detts?

1) they are large.
2) they have (or are supposed to have) internal capasity and launching capabilty for tht GTs
3) they have spyder drive.

That is it.
Well, David made it fairly clear that they could travel through hyper and through a wormhole. So you can add
4) They have a hyper drive (presumably Streak drive)
5) They have some way of using a wormhole (and presumably also then a grav wave).

That later might be alpha nodes, possibly on rams, or it might be some new or alternate use of the spider drive. <shrug>

Oh, and they likely have roughly the same accel at the Sharks and Ghosts (about 150g) because they presumably use the same advanced grav plate technology.

Still those little tidbits (not all the them 100% confirmed) doesn't add much to flesh out their potential operation.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:44 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Guys, what do we KNOW about the Lenny Detts?

1) they are large.
2) they have (or are supposed to have) internal capasity and launching capabilty for tht GTs
3) they have spyder drive.

That is it.
Well, David made it fairly clear that they could travel through hyper and through a wormhole. So you can add
4) They have a hyper drive (presumably Streak drive)
5) They have some way of using a wormhole (and presumably also then a grav wave).

That later might be alpha nodes, possibly on rams, or it might be some new or alternate use of the spider drive. <shrug>

Oh, and they likely have roughly the same accel at the Sharks and Ghosts (about 150g) because they presumably use the same advanced grav plate technology.

Still those little tidbits (not all the them 100% confirmed) doesn't add much to flesh out their potential operation.



I would add:
6)they are podlayers.
7)they have insane stealth systems
8)they are capital war ships (armor, ecm, offensive and defensive systems)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:10 pm

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And, per David, that they have a sane and rational doctrine that these are perfectly suited to execute. And they won't be easy to defeat.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:32 am

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Since they are patterned after submarines, it makes one wonder what sort of sub-like tactics will be employed.

I can imagine a wolfpack tactic where infrastructure is being destroyed and the cavalry comes to deal with it and suddenly finds themselves in the middle of a wolfpack that was lying doggo. Sort of like the setup that killed Courvoisier.

I imagine the unorthodox tactics are going to give the GA fits at first. Just like the maiden introduction of the Uboats. IIRC, a German Uboat was able to park 30 miles off of the US coast.

Thing is. There is a vast difference between the Uboats and American subs of WWII and the subs and submarine warfare of today. One of my favorite ships, as posted on the 'Favorite Ship' thread is the USS Virginia (SSN-774) nuclear sub. That baby is awesome. She ain't no putty cat. Will the capabilities and limitations of the Lennys share a similarity with the subs of yesteryear or those of today? Or some combination of them both. That is the question.

I suspect, if David follows the paradigm through, that whatever missile these things will employ will be completely non detectable, and those graser torps are going to open up enemy ships just like in WWII.

"Scratch three!"


The thing that worries me is the fact that all of this has to take place in the span of one more book. That just doesn't seem to be enough time to set up the introduction of the Lennys to unfold quite as dramatically in the usual quintessential Weber fashion. Yet, who am I? I'm no writer.


It'd be hilarious if RFC incorporates some sort of depth charge in the GA arsenal. Developed 'on-the-run'. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by wkernochan   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:59 pm

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cthia wrote:Since they are patterned after submarines, it makes one wonder what sort of sub-like tactics will be employed.

I can imagine a wolfpack tactic where infrastructure is being destroyed and the cavalry comes to deal with it and suddenly finds themselves in the middle of a wolfpack that was lying doggo. Sort of like the setup that killed Courvoisier.

I imagine the unorthodox tactics are going to give the GA fits at first. Just like the maiden introduction of the Uboats. IIRC, a German Uboat was able to park 30 miles off of the US coast.

Thing is. There is a vast difference between the Uboats and American subs of WWII and the subs and submarine warfare of today. One of my favorite ships, as posted on the 'Favorite Ship' thread is the USS Virginia (SSN-774) nuclear sub. That baby is awesome. She ain't no putty cat. Will the capabilities and limitations of the Lennys share a similarity with the subs of yesteryear or those of today? Or some combination of them both. That is the question.

I suspect, if David follows the paradigm through, that whatever missile these things will employ will be completely non detectable, and those graser torps are going to open up enemy ships just like in WWII.

"Scratch three!"


The thing that worries me is the fact that all of this has to take place in the span of one more book. That just doesn't seem to be enough time to set up the introduction of the Lennys to unfold quite as dramatically in the usual quintessential Weber fashion. Yet, who am I? I'm no writer.


It'd be hilarious if RFC incorporates some sort of depth charge in the GA arsenal. Developed 'on-the-run'. LOL


The naïve lurker delurks :) to make comments on a couple of things.

(1) The idea that one can "get around" Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. I was trained in Theory of Algorithms and Computing in the '70s, and it's not a question of getting around GIT -- some of our physicists don't seen to understand that. It's a question of being able to substitute parallelism in space for parallelism in time, which allows us to solve a much wider set of problems by handling petabytes of operations on petabytes of data rather than megabytes in a reasonable amount of time. There are still plenty of things, like Presberger arithmetic, that will still take time exponential in the number of operations. And "magic" operations like quantum computing (spooky simultaneous action at a distance) don't get around it either: There is a presently small subclass of problems where quantum computing can be faster than regular computing, as long as you don't mind being "sure enough" that the answer you get is correct, rather than "absolutely sure".

My other comment is that afaik no one on this thread is commenting on how MAlign is going to react to the new Manticoran technical knowledge about the streak and maybe spider drive -- remember, MAlign doesn't know what RMN doesn't know.

Let us assume that our starcrossed lovers heading for the MAlign bolthole escape by faking their own deaths. As far as Ben, Collin, etc. know, then, their operation to hide has been a success. He is not inclined, for different reasons, to do another Oyster Bay -- now, he doesn't want any more details on the LDs to leak. Thus, he imagines that he has time to tinker with the design not only of the LDs but of the more conventional navy as well. So what would he do?

I would guess that he assumes that RMN could retrofit streak on its warships, but it's going to be a kludge for the next couple of years, until they have enough expertise to do a mass redesign. So he figures he has three years before he has to face streak drive, perhaps about the same for detection of a spider drive, and much longer for offensive spider capability on the part of the Alliance.

The plan, then, since use of streak drive in SLN space is much harder to detect, is to tinker with spider drive to make it also harder to detect. That plus the fact that rebellions are going to be going on all over the place makes the Renaissance Factor planets to place to use the revised LDs 1-2 years from now, and they will be used more defensively than originally planned -- as well as to covertly support other rebellions nearby that are no threat to RF in order to provide a buffer zone.

I would then guess what might go wrong with such a plan. Firstly, I would suspect that the Alliance will indeed retrofit streak within the next six months on at least a few warships, with Hemphill providing the drive units and Foraker coming up with an ingenious way of retrofitting. Second, our starcrossed lovers will be discovered by Henke and the Alliance, providing a way aside from a wormhole to get to the MAlign hideyhole. The streak-drive-equipped warships will then arrive at the hideyhole well before they are expected, from an unexpected direction so that preliminary spying on the location of the LDs and fleet is also undetected. The LDs as well as the regular navy will be mostly caught "on the ground" and in the process of revision.

Now, were I as crafty as Peerless Author, here's how I would prolong the story. Part of the fleet is in point of fact not at the hideyhole, having gone to the RF system. There is nothing telling the Alliance that such a thing exists. And so, while the SL implodes and the Alliance imagines that MAlign is done for, forever, the last of the faithful hide out on RF until ...

Remember, Peerless Author warned us that the start of the Haven-Manticore war marked the end of a long relatively peaceful Golden Age. That almost certainly means that there is a long period of war still to come ...
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:22 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
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wkernochan wrote:
cthia wrote:Since they are patterned after submarines, it makes one wonder what sort of sub-like tactics will be employed.

I can imagine a wolfpack tactic where infrastructure is being destroyed and the cavalry comes to deal with it and suddenly finds themselves in the middle of a wolfpack that was lying doggo. Sort of like the setup that killed Courvoisier.

I imagine the unorthodox tactics are going to give the GA fits at first. Just like the maiden introduction of the Uboats. IIRC, a German Uboat was able to park 30 miles off of the US coast.

Thing is. There is a vast difference between the Uboats and American subs of WWII and the subs and submarine warfare of today. One of my favorite ships, as posted on the 'Favorite Ship' thread is the USS Virginia (SSN-774) nuclear sub. That baby is awesome. She ain't no putty cat. Will the capabilities and limitations of the Lennys share a similarity with the subs of yesteryear or those of today? Or some combination of them both. That is the question.

I suspect, if David follows the paradigm through, that whatever missile these things will employ will be completely non detectable, and those graser torps are going to open up enemy ships just like in WWII.

"Scratch three!"


The thing that worries me is the fact that all of this has to take place in the span of one more book. That just doesn't seem to be enough time to set up the introduction of the Lennys to unfold quite as dramatically in the usual quintessential Weber fashion. Yet, who am I? I'm no writer.


It'd be hilarious if RFC incorporates some sort of depth charge in the GA arsenal. Developed 'on-the-run'. LOL


The naïve lurker delurks :) to make comments on a couple of things.

(1) The idea that one can "get around" Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. I was trained in Theory of Algorithms and Computing in the '70s, and it's not a question of getting around GIT -- some of our physicists don't seen to understand that. It's a question of being able to substitute parallelism in space for parallelism in time, which allows us to solve a much wider set of problems by handling petabytes of operations on petabytes of data rather than megabytes in a reasonable amount of time. There are still plenty of things, like Presberger arithmetic, that will still take time exponential in the number of operations. And "magic" operations like quantum computing (spooky simultaneous action at a distance) don't get around it either: There is a presently small subclass of problems where quantum computing can be faster than regular computing, as long as you don't mind being "sure enough" that the answer you get is correct, rather than "absolutely sure".

My other comment is that afaik no one on this thread is commenting on how MAlign is going to react to the new Manticoran technical knowledge about the streak and maybe spider drive -- remember, MAlign doesn't know what RMN doesn't know.

Let us assume that our starcrossed lovers heading for the MAlign bolthole escape by faking their own deaths. As far as Ben, Collin, etc. know, then, their operation to hide has been a success. He is not inclined, for different reasons, to do another Oyster Bay -- now, he doesn't want any more details on the LDs to leak. Thus, he imagines that he has time to tinker with the design not only of the LDs but of the more conventional navy as well. So what would he do?

I would guess that he assumes that RMN could retrofit streak on its warships, but it's going to be a kludge for the next couple of years, until they have enough expertise to do a mass redesign. So he figures he has three years before he has to face streak drive, perhaps about the same for detection of a spider drive, and much longer for offensive spider capability on the part of the Alliance.

The plan, then, since use of streak drive in SLN space is much harder to detect, is to tinker with spider drive to make it also harder to detect. That plus the fact that rebellions are going to be going on all over the place makes the Renaissance Factor planets to place to use the revised LDs 1-2 years from now, and they will be used more defensively than originally planned -- as well as to covertly support other rebellions nearby that are no threat to RF in order to provide a buffer zone.

I would then guess what might go wrong with such a plan. Firstly, I would suspect that the Alliance will indeed retrofit streak within the next six months on at least a few warships, with Hemphill providing the drive units and Foraker coming up with an ingenious way of retrofitting. Second, our starcrossed lovers will be discovered by Henke and the Alliance, providing a way aside from a wormhole to get to the MAlign hideyhole. The streak-drive-equipped warships will then arrive at the hideyhole well before they are expected, from an unexpected direction so that preliminary spying on the location of the LDs and fleet is also undetected. The LDs as well as the regular navy will be mostly caught "on the ground" and in the process of revision.

Now, were I as crafty as Peerless Author, here's how I would prolong the story. Part of the fleet is in point of fact not at the hideyhole, having gone to the RF system. There is nothing telling the Alliance that such a thing exists. And so, while the SL implodes and the Alliance imagines that MAlign is done for, forever, the last of the faithful hide out on RF until ...

Remember, Peerless Author warned us that the start of the Haven-Manticore war marked the end of a long relatively peaceful Golden Age. That almost certainly means that there is a long period of war still to come ...
My bold to call attention.

You either gotta go around it, or you gotta go thru it, before you can reach the truly holy grail of computing. *I don't see any way around it. And the only way thru it is to unlock the door to its secrets.

Many ppl belittle the problem. Mostly because they don't respect it. I suppose they don't respect it because they don't understand it.

I think, it is the single most imposing stumbling block in both the road to true AI and to the holy grail of software. Every unprecedented concept has as its arch nemesis the same problem. Incidentally, Gödel's theorems are not the only problem. He has an accomplice in the form of the halting problem. Although quite similar, are not the same.

Parallelism is a powerful tool. I use it ruthlessly on my Cray. However, all parallel roads lead to the same fork. Each prong of the fork dead ends at either Gödel's or the halting problems' cul-de-sac.

Neither a breakthrough in computing space or computing time will kick the door in. They will simply allow you to speed ahead like most speeders do, to arrive at the same stop light.

*Except for the MAlign. They have a real opportunity here. **The human brain has no such limitations.

**Well, most human brains don't have that problem. Some brains inexplicably seem to halt before clearing the on ramp.

Scattered brains account for a scattered plot.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:09 pm

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Torch would be the first stop. Let the slaves leave the burnt out world of Torch and return to Mesa, Verdant Vista restored one can know that one's back door is secure.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:56 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Torch would be the first stop. Let the slaves leave the burnt out world of Torch and return to Mesa, Verdant Vista restored one can know that one's back door is secure.

Interesting, Lord Skimper. I never considered Torch as a first stop, but rather an incidental target. Your scenario however is much more intriguing and human—being a rather more personal vendetta. It would also poke a MAlignant thumb in many an eye.

Re-liberate liberated slaves. A tug-o-war proposition. I don't think they'll have much trouble there. And Torch would be... Torched.

By the way, thanks for responding to the original premise.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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