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THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!

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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by Vince   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:26 am

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Kizarvexis wrote:
munroburton wrote:3. The MAlign use the same missiles as the SLN(the Cataphracts). Graser torps have a spider drive and greater endurance, but are very slow and their maximum range falls well inside countermissile range(400,000km vs 3.5 million).

5. Wilder speculation has gone up to 30-40 million tons. It is probably closer to 10 million. Their size is nothing to do with the spider drive - there are frigate-sized spider ships. The size is more so they can carry graser torpedoes in internal magazines - which the "battleship sized" Sharks can't do.


While I would not be surprised at 30+ million LDs, I think they are around fort size, 16+ million. They need pod space, space for graser torp magazines and tubes and massive armor since they don't have a wedge. 10 million is too close to regular SDs and they have been implied as very large, IMO.

Graser torps use the spider drive, but have no crew onboard, so we don't know their max accel. IMO, it will be almost certainly faster than 150g's. A 1,000g would make them faster than ships and I would not be surprised at an accel in the tens of thousands, but that is RFCs call. They don't need to be super fast as graser range is 400,000km against a sidewall, more vs no sidewall or throat/kilt of the wedge of an unsuspecting enemy like the 2nd battle of Hades. Spider drives are very hard to detect at much more then a light second, 300,000km (Ghost captain mentions it while scouting the Manti system), so 400,000k graser range gives them a 100,000km buffer. They also have the range of a modern RD as mentioned during the Oyster Bay attack. So a LD can fire them from really, really long range. Even out of current Apollo range. So I don't think the LDs will be as much of a paper tiger as some have said.

As for the capabilities and limitations of the graser torpedo:
Mission of Honor, Chapter 28 wrote:The first wave of each attack consisted of a weapon which was as much a fundamental breakthrough, in its own way, as the Manticoran introduction of the multidrive missile: a graser torpedo which used its own variant of the spider drive. It was a large and cumbersome weapon, with the same trilateral symmetry as the Shark-class ships which had launched it, and for the same reasons.
The torpedo’s size made fitting it into magazines and actually firing it awkward, to say the least, and the Sharks had never been intended to deploy it operationally. For that matter, the Sharks themselves had never been supposed to be deployed “operationally.” The Leonard Detweiler class, which had been intended to carry out this operation, had been designed with magazines and launch tubes which would make it possible to stow and fire torpedoes internally, but none of the Detweilers were even close to completion, and it had required the development of an ingenious external rack system to allow the Sharks to use it for Oyster Bay.
For all its size, it was also a slow weapon. It was simply impossible to fit a spider drive capable of more than a few hundred gravities’ acceleration into something small enough to make a practical weapon. As compensation, however, its drive had almost as much endurance as most of the galaxy’s recon drones, which gave it an impressive absolute range. And a large percentage of the torpedo’s volume had been reserved for systems which had nothing at all to do with propulsion. Whereas the Royal Manticoran Navy had concentrated on improving the efficiency of its standard laser heads, Daniel Detweiler’s R&D staff had taken another approach. They’d figured out how to squeeze what amounted to a cruiser-grade graser projector into something small enough to deploy independently.
The power of the torpedo’s graser wasn’t remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes, yet it was more powerful than any single bomb-pumped laser head. Of course, there was only one of it in each torpedo, but R&D had decided the new weapon could sacrifice the laser head’s multi-shot capability, because it offered three highly significant advantages of its own. First, it was just as hard to pick up as a spider-drive ship, and the best antimissile defense in the universe couldn’t hit something it didn’t know was coming. Second, the torpedo carried extraordinarily capable sensors and targeting systems and an AI which approached the capability of the one Sonja Hemphill’s people had fitted into the Apollo control missile. As a consequence, its long-range hit probability was significantly higher on a per-beam basis than anything short of Apollo itself. And, third, a bomb-pulsed laser had a burst endurance of barely five thousandths of a second; a laser torpedo’s graser’s endurance was a full three seconds . . . ​and it had a burn-through range against most sidewalls of over fifty thousand kilometers.
Fitting all that into something the size of a torpedo had required some drastic engineering compromises, and there’d never been any possibility of squeezing in the power supply for more than a single shot. Even if there had been, no one could build a graser that small and that powerful which could survive the power bleed and waste heat of actually firing. But that was fine with the MAN’s designers and tacticians. In fact, they were just as happy every graser torpedo would irrevocably and totally destroy itself in the moment it fired, since they weren’t looking forward to the day one of their enemies finally captured one intact and figured out how to duplicate it.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by munroburton   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:44 am

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Kizarvexis wrote:
munroburton wrote:3. The MAlign use the same missiles as the SLN(the Cataphracts). Graser torps have a spider drive and greater endurance, but are very slow and their maximum range falls well inside countermissile range(400,000km vs 3.5 million).

5. Wilder speculation has gone up to 30-40 million tons. It is probably closer to 10 million. Their size is nothing to do with the spider drive - there are frigate-sized spider ships. The size is more so they can carry graser torpedoes in internal magazines - which the "battleship sized" Sharks can't do.


While I would not be surprised at 30+ million LDs, I think they are around fort size, 16+ million. They need pod space, space for graser torp magazines and tubes and massive armor since they don't have a wedge. 10 million is too close to regular SDs and they have been implied as very large, IMO.

Graser torps use the spider drive, but have no crew onboard, so we don't know their max accel. IMO, it will be almost certainly faster than 150g's. A 1,000g would make them faster than ships and I would not be surprised at an accel in the tens of thousands, but that is RFCs call. They don't need to be super fast as graser range is 400,000km against a sidewall, more vs no sidewall or throat/kilt of the wedge of an unsuspecting enemy like the 2nd battle of Hades. Spider drives are very hard to detect at much more then a light second, 300,000km (Ghost captain mentions it while scouting the Manti system), so 400,000k graser range gives them a 100,000km buffer. They also have the range of a modern RD as mentioned during the Oyster Bay attack. So a LD can fire them from really, really long range. Even out of current Apollo range. So I don't think the LDs will be as much of a paper tiger as some have said.


400,000km is the maximum effective range for grasers, although it might be a bit higher for a non-maneuvering object in a fixed orbit.

As Vince just provided textev, we can see "it had a burn-through range against most sidewalls of over fifty thousand kilometers."

That's the range they have to reach to be effective against battle-ready opponents. Even worse from the MA's perspective, a spider drive offers no danger to an impeller wedge, so one CM could potentially mow down multiple torpedoes.

And these are cruiser grasers, not BCs or SDs. "The power of the torpedo’s graser wasn’t remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes, yet it was more powerful than any single bomb-pumped laser head."

The Shrikes have a poor track record of causing damage to Havenite SDs, compared to MDM salvos. The graser torpedoes are dangerous, yes... but only if they catch a RMN formation stood-down and anchored, with no ready units or LAC patrols.

If I were the GA, I'd have at least six recon drones operating around each warship permanently, even when "anchored". They can at least interpose wedge fields in an emergency until the warship can warm up its nodes.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:06 am

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Ok, The Lenny's are coming. I doubt there will be enough of them to maintain a sustained war against the Haven Sector Allies possible, if the location of Darius is known. The MAlign's only hope of survival remains ti keep its whereabouts hidden. Even with the Renaissance Factor taken into account, the HSA can wipe them out within a handful of years.

If our Solly conspirators are successful, the MAlign won't last more than a few months. Darius is left to the HSA and the Sollies take out the remaining Factor polities. Bottom line is that the Lenny Ds require stealth to work effectively. Once Darius's location is known, Her Grace, the Duchess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Admiral Harrington will defer to the Handmaiden of Death and the Salamander will take her besties along for a final deathride writ large. She and her rather large fleet will sail into Darius, lose quite a few ships along the way, and finally complete her ancestors' victory over the Detweiler eugenicists.

If those conspirators aren't, then the books may end without a complete victory by the HSA. A hidden Darius can pull in its horns and send out the Lenny Ds on select missions. They can bleed the HSA while building their own strength. A decade or two later, they will have enough material strength to survive an open war with the HSA.

If the MAlign are exposed soon, they are doomed. The only variable is how much damage they do before the Salamander and her fellow death-riders reduce the MAlign to ash.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:23 pm

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:2. All manned spider drive ships top out at ~150g. Slower than impeller-drive merchantships.

3. The MAlign use the same missiles as the SLN(the Cataphracts). Graser torps have a spider drive and greater endurance, but are very slow and their maximum range falls well inside countermissile range(400,000km vs 3.5 million).

4. Unknown. There are no hints as to the Lennies' use other than in Oyster Bay style operations.

5. Wilder speculation has gone up to 30-40 million tons. It is probably closer to 10 million. Their size is nothing to do with the spider drive - there are frigate-sized spider ships. The size is more so they can carry graser torpedoes in internal magazines - which the "battleship sized" Sharks can't do.

The high guestimates sound more like the stats of a fricking fort! Mama Mia, I should have visited those technical threads a lot more.

What am I missing? There is a serious disadvantage in accel and max accel. And a serious advantage in missile range. What will there main tactical advantage be? Surely they can't get close enough with those behemoths if the larger tonnage sizes are correct? They won't be targeting space stations in a straight up fight.
MaxxQ wrote:The entire advantage to the LD is its stealth. Once that's cracked, they're useless. The MA built them for nothing more than sneak attacks, because they know they can't (yet) build anything that can otherwise match the GA ships on a one-for-one basis.

Take away their stealth, and they've got nothing.

Something seems to be derailing my train of thought. Or either the illogic in my head is finally catching up with me.

Surely it can't be as simple as that Maxx, or it would prove to have been lots of work on a useless one-off design. Similar to the grav lance. So I assumed there must also be a complementary tactical advantage somewhere, somehow in weaponry to offset the glaring weakness that surely must also be just as obvious to an alpha's mind. Or as you've said, the all bark and no bite platform would have such a critical weakness that could leave it seriously naked. I assumed the complementary tactical advantage had to be in the missile envelope. I initially considered missile acceleration as a possible and probable advantage as well, but I assumed the missiles would have the same limitations as the ship and reading the initial posts proposing a max accel of 150G I dismissed that thought. However, with such possible theoretical missile acceleration as Weird Harold suggests, it falls back in line with my original thoughts. The LDs have to have some sort of tactical advantage other than their stealth. Or it seems it would have been more cost effective to simply build the same small Sharks that carried out the OB attack in bigger numbers (especially if extreme 30-40M+ tonnage estimates are accurate for the LDs) and develop the appropriate launch tubes for them or even further develop the jury-rigged firing mechanism that was already used in the OB attack. Even if at the expense of a very limited payload of a "few shots to dry" each.

Which propels me into a rear end collision with my next point. It seems that the design itself suggests that it isn't a one trick pony. That its stealth isn't the only trick up its sleeve. If the exceedingly large size - dwarfingly large at its extreme - is due to the payload of missiles, that suggests other surprises in store. Or how would an LD ever get a chance to expend that many missiles at anything other than an immobile planet or relatively immobile unsuspecting space station? A launch would have ships automatically tracing the origin of the missiles if huge launches were utilized. And the 3 second beam times suggests ship destroyer capabilities. No? Massive launches at space stations don't require 3 second beam times to decimate them or massive launches of such a weapon. So why would they carry that many missiles if they knew their design would never get them the needed time to use them? Unless they all operated under Anisimovna's proposal of orphaning navies.

Edit:
Doh! My typing speed can never keep up with my train of thought.

However, with such possible theoretical missile [ranges] as Weird Harold suggests, it falls back in line with my original thoughts.

[ranges] to [acceleration]

.
Last edited by cthia on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by munroburton   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:49 pm

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I suspect one of the reasons for the LD's size is to limit exposure. One lonely LD is more difficult to find than six or eight Sharks shooting com-lasers at each other. Plus, fewer entry hyper footprints for perimeter security to investigate.

As for its future planned usage or additional capabilities, RFC has kept those cards very well locked away. It's anyone's guess as to what those might be.
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:53 pm

cthia
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Kizarvexis wrote:
munroburton wrote:3. The MAlign use the same missiles as the SLN(the Cataphracts). Graser torps have a spider drive and greater endurance, but are very slow and their maximum range falls well inside countermissile range(400,000km vs 3.5 million).

5. Wilder speculation has gone up to 30-40 million tons. It is probably closer to 10 million. Their size is nothing to do with the spider drive - there are frigate-sized spider ships. The size is more so they can carry graser torpedoes in internal magazines - which the "battleship sized" Sharks can't do.


While I would not be surprised at 30+ million LDs, I think they are around fort size, 16+ million. They need pod space, space for graser torp magazines and tubes and massive armor since they don't have a wedge. 10 million is too close to regular SDs and they have been implied as very large, IMO.

Graser torps use the spider drive, but have no crew onboard, so we don't know their max accel. IMO, it will be almost certainly faster than 150g's. A 1,000g would make them faster than ships and I would not be surprised at an accel in the tens of thousands, but that is RFCs call. They don't need to be super fast as graser range is 400,000km against a sidewall, more vs no sidewall or throat/kilt of the wedge of an unsuspecting enemy like the 2nd battle of Hades. Spider drives are very hard to detect at much more then a light second, 300,000km (Ghost captain mentions it while scouting the Manti system), so 400,000k graser range gives them a 100,000km buffer. They also have the range of a modern RD as mentioned during the Oyster Bay attack. So a LD can fire them from really, really long range. Even out of current Apollo range. So I don't think the LDs will be as much of a paper tiger as some have said.
munroburton wrote:400,000km is the maximum effective range for grasers, although it might be a bit higher for a non-maneuvering object in a fixed orbit.

As Vince just provided textev, we can see "it had a burn-through range against most sidewalls of over fifty thousand kilometers."

That's the range they have to reach to be effective against battle-ready opponents. Even worse from the MA's perspective, a spider drive offers no danger to an impeller wedge, so one CM could potentially mow down multiple torpedoes.

And these are cruiser grasers, not BCs or SDs. "The power of the torpedo’s graser wasn’t remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes, yet it was more powerful than any single bomb-pumped laser head."

The Shrikes have a poor track record of causing damage to Havenite SDs, compared to MDM salvos. The graser torpedoes are dangerous, yes... but only if they catch a RMN formation stood-down and anchored, with no ready units or LAC patrols.

If I were the GA, I'd have at least six recon drones operating around each warship permanently, even when "anchored". They can at least interpose wedge fields in an emergency until the warship can warm up its nodes.
My bold of your text to call attention.

I was considering some sort of early warning system/protection as well. Can they afford to operate expensive recon drones in that manner?

I was considering more of a solution of repurposed computers (in the case of unsuspecting space stations) to be set up to analyze incoming missiles and burst transmit whatever data before it dies. In hopes of quickly producing threat vectors in which to search for stealthed ships.

At any rate, considering such massive acceleration rates even a fraction of what Weird Harold proposes might theoretically be possible, would it not do to GA counter missiles what Apollo and the ECM suite did for the RMN against Haven? The RMN's CIC won't have the time to adjust to such "impossible" acceleration rates. Especially if the human element produces even more of a delay with their shock. As it were with Haven's command at tactical.

It also would seem to suggest to me that the RMN's traditional formations would be at the mercy of such launches and spreading their formation greatly would be a better tactic. Mutual CM support wouldn't be possible?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:10 pm

cthia
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munroburton wrote:I suspect one of the reasons for the LD's size is to limit exposure. One lonely LD is more difficult to find than six or eight Sharks shooting com-lasers at each other. Plus, fewer entry hyper footprints for perimeter security to investigate.

As for its future planned usage or additional capabilities, RFC has kept those cards very well locked away. It's anyone's guess as to what those might be.

As always there's much sanity and logic in your post munroburton but there's something about the whole situation that sets my spider senses (no pun intended) to tingling.

Even if a fair amount of the LDs size goes towards a thick skin, certainly enough volume is excess to support a missile payload for multi-targets. And there just isn't enough space stations or infrastructure in any system to justify the payload. Even pre-OB. No? Which begs the question of what other targets exist other than planets or enemy fleets?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:32 pm

cthia
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Kizarvexis wrote:
munroburton wrote:3. The MAlign use the same missiles as the SLN(the Cataphracts). Graser torps have a spider drive and greater endurance, but are very slow and their maximum range falls well inside countermissile range(400,000km vs 3.5 million).

5. Wilder speculation has gone up to 30-40 million tons. It is probably closer to 10 million. Their size is nothing to do with the spider drive - there are frigate-sized spider ships. The size is more so they can carry graser torpedoes in internal magazines - which the "battleship sized" Sharks can't do.


While I would not be surprised at 30+ million LDs, I think they are around fort size, 16+ million. They need pod space, space for graser torp magazines and tubes and massive armor since they don't have a wedge. 10 million is too close to regular SDs and they have been implied as very large, IMO.

Graser torps use the spider drive, but have no crew onboard, so we don't know their max accel. IMO, it will be almost certainly faster than 150g's. A 1,000g would make them faster than ships and I would not be surprised at an accel in the tens of thousands, but that is RFCs call. They don't need to be super fast as graser range is 400,000km against a sidewall, more vs no sidewall or throat/kilt of the wedge of an unsuspecting enemy like the 2nd battle of Hades. Spider drives are very hard to detect at much more then a light second, 300,000km (Ghost captain mentions it while scouting the Manti system), so 400,000k graser range gives them a 100,000km buffer. They also have the range of a modern RD as mentioned during the Oyster Bay attack. So a LD can fire them from really, really long range. Even out of current Apollo range. So I don't think the LDs will be as much of a paper tiger as some have said.
My bold to call attention.

I share the same logic as well which was why I posted a few clicks upstream that I thought they'd be even bigger. As you've said 10Mton is simply too close to an SDs current size. I assumed at least a 50 - 100 % increase in tonnage to account for the "very large" description. Your 16+ Mtons comes in right at the low end of that.

Haven't had a chance to digest Vince's awesome textev exhibit from Chapter 28 of MOH.

Thanks Vince, you are another huckleberry.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:58 pm

cthia
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PeterZ wrote:Ok, The Lenny's are coming. I doubt there will be enough of them to maintain a sustained war against the Haven Sector Allies possible, if the location of Darius is known. The MAlign's only hope of survival remains ti keep its whereabouts hidden. Even with the Renaissance Factor taken into account, the HSA can wipe them out within a handful of years.

If our Solly conspirators are successful, the MAlign won't last more than a few months. Darius is left to the HSA and the Sollies take out the remaining Factor polities. Bottom line is that the Lenny Ds require stealth to work effectively. Once Darius's location is known, Her Grace, the Duchess Harrington, Steadholder Harrington, Admiral Harrington will defer to the Handmaiden of Death and the Salamander will take her besties along for a final deathride writ large. She and her rather large fleet will sail into Darius, lose quite a few ships along the way, and finally complete her ancestors' victory over the Detweiler eugenicists.

If those conspirators aren't, then the books may end without a complete victory by the HSA. A hidden Darius can pull in its horns and send out the Lenny Ds on select missions. They can bleed the HSA while building their own strength. A decade or two later, they will have enough material strength to survive an open war with the HSA.

If the MAlign are exposed soon, they are doomed. The only variable is how much damage they do before the Salamander and her fellow death-riders reduce the MAlign to ash.

The premise of the thread is that that time into the future has come.

Whether much sooner than expected is debatable but not necessary. Whatever the appointed time that Paul Revere's descendant makes another historical ride, but this time exclaiming that "the fleet of LDs has completed their working up trials and are coming!" is the wormhole junction's entry point of this thread.

I don't believe that the MAlign's absolute plans include living as recluses or the galaxy's stowaways 'til the end of time. Which is a very long time indeed - even for the MAlign.

And when they do emerge from behind the alpha wall, their First Space Lord-like doppelgänger would have long since stood and pushed himself away from the big huge desk made of rare Darian wood overlooking a breathtaking view of the city and uttered three ominous words "It is time."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: THE LENNYS ARE COMING! THE LENNYS ARE COMING!
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:39 pm

cthia
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And as he broke eye contact with Anisimovna, she added two more ominous words of her own "Tick Tock."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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