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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:09 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Dresden was a war crime. None of the Japanese cases are war crimes, though.

We burned Tokyo because the Japanese industry was decentralized, we had no other way to destroy the war industry other than to destroy the cities it was in.

The same thing applies to the nukes--every city was a valid target.

It is really hard to argue that a park full of kids is a valid military target.

So it is either a terrorist attack or an edict violation.

And if you don't want the whole seccie terrorist line that the MA is selling to be successful you need to address it, because it really was a seccie terrorist attack supported by Mannticore, Torch and Haven intelligence agencies. And I suspect that pretty good evidence will emerge at an inopportune moment for the SEM, which will undermine any claims that are made about the other bombs.



It was not supported by Manticore. It was not even supported by most of the seccies. They guy was nuts.

I doubt there will be an repercussions. First of all, there haven't been any since the bombs went off. And it's now a couple of years later.

Second, it won't be difficult to find out where the atomic materials came from for the bombs on Mesa. We currently can tell even now where materials came from.

And the victors write the histories.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:11 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Dresden was a war crime. None of the Japanese cases are war crimes, though.

We burned Tokyo because the Japanese industry was decentralized, we had no other way to destroy the war industry other than to destroy the cities it was in.

The same thing applies to the nukes--every city was a valid target.

It is really hard to argue that a park full of kids is a valid military target.

So it is either a terrorist attack or an edict violation.

And if you don't want the whole seccie terrorist line that the MA is selling to be successful you need to address it, because it really was a seccie terrorist attack supported by Mannticore, Torch and Haven intelligence agencies. And I suspect that pretty good evidence will emerge at an inopportune moment for the SEM, which will undermine any claims that are made about the other bombs.


No. A park full of kids was not a military target. But that assumes that someone other than David was aiming at the kids. And David is no longer around to answer for his deed.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:57 am

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ldwechsler wrote:It was not supported by Manticore. It was not even supported by most of the seccies. They guy was nuts.

So the undercover RMN intel officer (note that he is in fact carried on the RMN rolls) had nothing whatsoever to do with the terrorists? Do you really think that is a safe position to take as we know video records exist of him consorting with the seccies?
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:36 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Second, it won't be difficult to find out where the atomic materials came from for the bombs on Mesa. We currently can tell even now where materials came from.

And the victors write the histories.

No, it's a grav pinch implosion bomb. It's a collection of electronics and hydrogen. Which is why it is basically impossible to detect without a tacker.

And not exactly. For example, the history of WWI circa 1934 in Germany. Or, as an example David agreed with, Bloody Sunday. It might not matter to you, but it matters a whole lot to many people.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:03 am

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Second, it won't be difficult to find out where the atomic materials came from for the bombs on Mesa. We currently can tell even now where materials came from.

And the victors write the histories.

No, it's a grav pinch implosion bomb. It's a collection of electronics and hydrogen. Which is why it is basically impossible to detect without a tacker.

And not exactly. For example, the history of WWI circa 1934 in Germany. Or, as an example David agreed with, Bloody Sunday. It might not matter to you, but it matters a whole lot to many people.


The real problem is that few people really care about Mesa. They are not part of the League. They are known as slavers. And there are a lot of other things going on.

O'Hanrahan will be questioned. Possibly with a treecat present. Remember there are a lot more of them around now that they've become bodyguards. Having a snarling animal coming at you when you lie is more than a bit scary.

Add to that a good interrogator can get a lot of info just from the reactions of the person being interrogated.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:12 am

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:It was not supported by Manticore. It was not even supported by most of the seccies. They guy was nuts.

So the undercover RMN intel officer (note that he is in fact carried on the RMN rolls) had nothing whatsoever to do with the terrorists? Do you really think that is a safe position to take as we know video records exist of him consorting with the seccies?


If you want to go the RMN route, the court martial of Captain Zilwicki will go as follows:

Were you in command of the group that bombed Green Pines?
No, Ma'am.
Did you order the bombing of Green Pines?
No, Ma'am.
Did you pass along any orders to bomb Green Pines?
No, Ma'am.
Did you include Green Pines on any planning?
No, Ma'am.
Did you ask the Seccies Resistance to obtain a nuclear explosive?
No, Ma'am. I did ask them to assist me in obtaining explosives, but the nuclear bomb was unexpected.
Did you assist them in any way with the bomb?
Ma'am, when I realised the locator beacon was operational, and that discovery or death was imminent, I then disabled the beacon.
Did you advise them to then use the bomb?
No,Ma'am, I advised against. When the group insisted on using the bomb, I devised plans to minimise civilian casualties. As stated, those plans did not include Green Pines.
Did you assign David Pritchard to be in charge of the bomb?
No, Ma'am.
Did you give him any orders?
No, Ma'am.
Did you pass along any orders?
No, Ma'am.
Did you give any advice as to orders?
I advised that David and Karen should stand down and go to ground when I realised Mr McBryde planned to bomb the Gamma Centre. Mr Hansen gave those orders.
Do you know if they were obeyed?
Ma'am, Karen obeyed them, but David Pritchard did not.

Add Treecats to say he's not lying, Karen and the other survivors to confirm his evidence.

If you want to argue that Green Pines is a terrorist attack, yes, you can. You can argue that Green Pines was a Seccie terrorist attack, carried out by a Seccie who'd gone nuts. It was morally wrong, because the kids weren't guilty of any crime.

But the post GA government is likely to struggle to care, because the post GA government will consist of Seccies and ex-slaves. Even if the GA insists that the former Citizens get a vote, they're still a minority. And those Seccies and ex-slaves will be able to tell their own stories of their children being murdered, or tortured, or raped.

More importantly, you keep insisting on putting the majority of the blame for a morally wrong action on the person who not only didn't take those actions, but who is one of those least responsible for David Pritchard's actions. The person who was trying to minimise casualties throughout.

Why is that?
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by robert132   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:47 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:If you want to argue that Green Pines is a terrorist attack, yes, you can. You can argue that Green Pines was a Seccie terrorist attack, carried out by a Seccie who'd gone nuts. It was morally wrong, because the kids weren't guilty of any crime.



Quite frankly the Green Pines attack was one committed by a "lone wolf" suicide bomber, something that 21st Century Earth as seen quite enough of.

The only things that separate David from his 21st Century predecessors is his motivation (ideology/religion) and the type of explosive used, the differences in which don't make a damned bit of difference except in scale.
Last edited by robert132 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:48 pm

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kzt wrote:No, it's a grav pinch implosion bomb. It's a collection of electronics and hydrogen. Which is why it is basically impossible to detect without a tacker.
The civilian construction nukes might even use a solid fuel source like lithium inside the grav pinch. Though I'm pretty sure they'd go for aneutronic fusion over shelf stable - but it's possible you could get both.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:46 pm

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kzt wrote:No, it's a grav pinch implosion bomb. It's a collection of electronics and hydrogen. Which is why it is basically impossible to detect without a tacker.

And not exactly. For example, the history of WWI circa 1934 in Germany. Or, as an example David agreed with, Bloody Sunday. It might not matter to you, but it matters a whole lot to many people.


Nitpick: A collection of electronics and lithium deutride. Plain hydrogen doesn't make a useful h-bomb unless you can generate pressures far beyond what we can today. Even with using an h-bomb as the trigger we can't get a boom out of plain hydrogen, the reaction is too slow.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:15 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Nitpick: A collection of electronics and lithium deutride. Plain hydrogen doesn't make a useful h-bomb unless you can generate pressures far beyond what we can today. Even with using an h-bomb as the trigger we can't get a boom out of plain hydrogen, the reaction is too slow.

Im pretty sure David has absurd temperatures and pressures in his reactors.
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