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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:05 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:Yes, he could have told them to put them back. Would they have listened to him?

It's made really, really clear in the book that Zilwicki wasn't in charge of those kids. He couldn't give them orders. If he had been able to give them orders, the orders would have been 'don't use the nukes'. That's in the book.

Another point would be that 'put them back where you got them' risks one of the kids getting caught, with a nuke (I was putting it back, officer, honest). They'd be interrogated. Zilwicki and Cachat would get caught. Manticore and Haven would never have found out about Mesa, billions would have died and the MAlign would have won.

Would it have been worth the risk?
I'd assume, though it is an assumption, that if Zilwicki hacked enough access to disable the location tracker that he'd also have enough access to disable a nuke or at least it's trigger.

Though disabling them and refusing to fix it sounds like a wonderful way of destroying relations with the Seccies and possibly pissing them off enough to finger you to Mesan security. (And disabling them but not telling the Seccies delays that discovery, but should make them more angry as it forces them to take the additional risk of placing the nukes without any benifit. And of course then you'd have to come with with a different plan or device to cover your escape - without any of the groups involvement as they can't know than plan A (the nukes) is defunct.

Still, morally that might have been the right thing to do. Heck simply killing all those people willing to use nukes on civilian targets might have been the moral thing to do.
But what do you do then?
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:06 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Yes, he could have told them to put them back. Would they have listened to him?

It's made really, really clear in the book that Zilwicki wasn't in charge of those kids. He couldn't give them orders. If he had been able to give them orders, the orders would have been 'don't use the nukes'. That's in the book.

Another point would be that 'put them back where you got them' risks one of the kids getting caught, with a nuke (I was putting it back, officer, honest). They'd be interrogated. Zilwicki and Cachat would get caught. Manticore and Haven would never have found out about Mesa, billions would have died and the MAlign would have won.

Would it have been worth the risk?
I'd assume, though it is an assumption, that if Zilwicki hacked enough access to disable the location tracker that he'd also have enough access to disable a nuke or at least it's trigger.

Though disabling them and refusing to fix it sounds like a wonderful way of destroying relations with the Seccies and possibly pissing them off enough to finger you to Mesan security. (And disabling them but not telling the Seccies delays that discovery, but should make them more angry as it forces them to take the additional risk of placing the nukes without any benifit. And of course then you'd have to come with with a different plan or device to cover your escape - without any of the groups involvement as they can't know than plan A (the nukes) is defunct.

Still, morally that might have been the right thing to do. Heck simply killing all those people willing to use nukes on civilian targets might have been the moral thing to do.
But what do you do then?


And Zilwicki had no idea of how the bomb would actually be used. Or if it would be used at all.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:21 am

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ldwechsler wrote:And Zilwicki had no idea of how the bomb would actually be used. Or if it would be used at all.

Well, he handed it to an obviously unstable guy who kept talking about mass murder and told him to set it off. So I’m a little unsure how he didn’t think it be used.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:15 am

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:And Zilwicki had no idea of how the bomb would actually be used. Or if it would be used at all.

Well, he handed it to an obviously unstable guy who kept talking about mass murder and told him to set it off. So I’m a little unsure how he didn’t think it be used.


No, he didn't hand it 'to an obviously unstable guy'.


Zilwicki did not steal the nuke. He did not want the nuke. He did not want the nuke to be used in his original escape plans. He did not want David Pritchard to be given charge of the nuke. He was not in command of the Seccie group. He did not have any authority over the Seccie group beyond he and Victor being more experienced agents than they were. He was overruled by that group when it came to a) obtaining the nuke, b) using the nuke. He didn't decide to give the nuke to David Pritchard; the Seccie group did that.

All of the above is in the book.


What Zilwicki did do was disable a locator beacon that would have summoned armed police and would, at a minimum, have resulted in the total failure of his own mission. Later he devised plans which would enable him (and Victor) to escape with information that he then knew was probably the most important intelligence information in Post Diaspora history.

The plans he devised were constructed to minimise civilian casualties, and had to be adapted on the fly once McBryde was identified and they had to make a hurried escape. Green Pines itself was never in Zilwicki's plan, and was the result of David Pritchard disobeying the orders of his group leader.

Again, the above is in the book.

Why are we discussing so much whether a technical advisor, a staff weenie, was entirely responsible for Green Pines? As far as I can see, it's a bit like blaming Warrant Officer Sir Horace Harkness because he reprograms a missile that a furious Adm. Harrington later uses to destroy Old Chicago.

Especially since the team of Zilwicki and Cachat have since been debriefed by Haven, Manticore and Torch, and none of those Star Nations have done anything like hold a court martial or taken any other action that suggests they hold Zilwicki responsible.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:53 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:And Zilwicki had no idea of how the bomb would actually be used. Or if it would be used at all.

Well, he handed it to an obviously unstable guy who kept talking about mass murder and told him to set it off. So I’m a little unsure how he didn’t think it be used.


No, he didn't hand it 'to an obviously unstable guy'.


Zilwicki did not steal the nuke. He did not want the nuke. He did not want the nuke to be used in his original escape plans. He did not want David Pritchard to be given charge of the nuke. He was not in command of the Seccie group. He did not have any authority over the Seccie group beyond he and Victor being more experienced agents than they were. He was overruled by that group when it came to a) obtaining the nuke, b) using the nuke. He didn't decide to give the nuke to David Pritchard; the Seccie group did that.

All of the above is in the book.


What Zilwicki did do was disable a locator beacon that would have summoned armed police and would, at a minimum, have resulted in the total failure of his own mission. Later he devised plans which would enable him (and Victor) to escape with information that he then knew was probably the most important intelligence information in Post Diaspora history.

The plans he devised were constructed to minimise civilian casualties, and had to be adapted on the fly once McBryde was identified and they had to make a hurried escape. Green Pines itself was never in Zilwicki's plan, and was the result of David Pritchard disobeying the orders of his group leader.

Again, the above is in the book.

Why are we discussing so much whether a technical advisor, a staff weenie, was entirely responsible for Green Pines? As far as I can see, it's a bit like blaming Warrant Officer Sir Horace Harkness because he reprograms a missile that a furious Adm. Harrington later uses to destroy Old Chicago.

Especially since the team of Zilwicki and Cachat have since been debriefed by Haven, Manticore and Torch, and none of those Star Nations have done anything like hold a court martial or taken any other action that suggests they hold Zilwicki responsible.[/quote]

Not only that, there has been little interest in that anywhere. We know that Anton is innocent. Those who push for a trial just prefer taking the side of slavers...or they are playing us.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:14 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Well, he handed it to an obviously unstable guy who kept talking about mass murder and told him to set it off. So I’m a little unsure how he didn’t think it be used.


No, he didn't hand it 'to an obviously unstable guy'.


Zilwicki did not steal the nuke. He did not want the nuke. He did not want the nuke to be used in his original escape plans. He did not want David Pritchard to be given charge of the nuke. He was not in command of the Seccie group. He did not have any authority over the Seccie group beyond he and Victor being more experienced agents than they were. He was overruled by that group when it came to a) obtaining the nuke, b) using the nuke. He didn't decide to give the nuke to David Pritchard; the Seccie group did that.
Zilwicki didn't steal the nukes. But he accepted their use instead of taking steps to prevent it.
And within his hearing David Pritchard had already advocated nuking the Pine Valley Park in Green Pines. And his fellow seccies has told him to keep his "bloodlust to a reasonable minimum" - and he was visibly unhappy with the agreed upon target due to the lack of casualties/damage it would cause.

But there's no evidence that Anton even tried to suggest that another, less "bloodthirsty" member be given the task of setting that nuke - even after David advocated, to Anton's face, blowing up a park that would be full of children and families. (However we're not given a view of who decided the assignments and how - so maybe he protested it then; or maybe he actually picked David. We just don't know)


Anton's not quite as free from blame as you seem to be painting him. It shouldn't have been a big surprise that someone his own people had called bloodthirsty went ahead and nuked the civilian target that he'd been openly agitating to nuke.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:22 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
No, he didn't hand it 'to an obviously unstable guy'.


Zilwicki did not steal the nuke. He did not want the nuke. He did not want the nuke to be used in his original escape plans. He did not want David Pritchard to be given charge of the nuke. He was not in command of the Seccie group. He did not have any authority over the Seccie group beyond he and Victor being more experienced agents than they were. He was overruled by that group when it came to a) obtaining the nuke, b) using the nuke. He didn't decide to give the nuke to David Pritchard; the Seccie group did that.


]Zilwicki didn't steal the nukes. But he accepted their use instead of taking steps to prevent it.
And within his hearing David Pritchard had already advocated nuking the Pine Valley Park in Green Pines. And his fellow seccies has told him to keep his "bloodlust to a reasonable minimum" - and he was visibly unhappy with the agreed upon target due to the lack of casualties/damage it would cause.

But there's no evidence that Anton even tried to suggest that another, less "bloodthirsty" member be given the task of setting that nuke - even after David advocated, to Anton's face, blowing up a park that would be full of children and families. (However we're not given a view of who decided the assignments and how - so maybe he protested it then; or maybe he actually picked David. We just don't know)


Anton's not quite as free from blame as you seem to be painting him. It shouldn't have been a big surprise that someone his own people had called bloodthirsty went ahead and nuked the civilian target that he'd been openly agitating to nuke.


Precisely what steps could he have taken? I cheerfully admit that he's not in the position of Travis Long, finding himself cast as getaway driver without even knowing that a crime would take place. But you're arguing that he didn't take steps to prevent the nuke's use when he

argued that they could substitute fuel-air bombs
.

And we do know that he didn't assign the nuke to David Pritchard because
he hadn't attended the last meeting of the group...the decision to put Pritchard in charge of the device must have been made there. ... There really wasn't anything they could do about it.


and finally

Send instructions to Karen and David. Tell them to get the hell out and go to ground


So what, please, was he supposed to do - that would not result in the failure of his mission - given that he argued against the use of nukes, didn't assign David Pritchard, and finally asked that the nuke not be set off at all?

Why are people placing the brunt of the blame on the technical advisor? Is it simply too boring to admit that most of the blame lies with the minor characters?
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:03 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:So what, please, was he supposed to do - that would not result in the failure of his mission - given that he argued against the use of nukes, didn't assign David Pritchard, and finally asked that the nuke not be set off at all?

Why are people placing the brunt of the blame on the technical advisor? Is it simply too boring to admit that most of the blame lies with the minor characters?

There is plenty of blame to go around. His unwillingness to make waves was yet another cause. "I was only obeying orders" is generally not accepted as an excuse for mass murder.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Joat42   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:42 pm

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kzt wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:So what, please, was he supposed to do - that would not result in the failure of his mission - given that he argued against the use of nukes, didn't assign David Pritchard, and finally asked that the nuke not be set off at all?

Why are people placing the brunt of the blame on the technical advisor? Is it simply too boring to admit that most of the blame lies with the minor characters?

There is plenty of blame to go around. His unwillingness to make waves was yet another cause. "I was only obeying orders" is generally not accepted as an excuse for mass murder.

So what would YOU have done? The goal is to leave Mesa undetected and not blow the mission.

Because failing that, a LOT more people would die in the long run.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:48 pm

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Joat42 wrote:So what would YOU have done? The goal is to leave Mesa undetected and not blow the mission.

Because failing that, a LOT more people would die in the long run.

Plant the weapon ahead of time with remote command detonation and antitamper fuzing. With a backup option to simply destroy it in place.
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