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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:33 am

Brigade XO
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Hitting the orbital stations around Manticore, Sphinx and Griffon was coverd as military targets as that was basing, defensive positions, command and control at each of the major stations plus there were a number of warships docked.
From the Alignment perspective -and probably any lawyer you want to talk to- that the debris from the stations both fell on the planets and caused loss of life was COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

They struck at LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS (which the foolish Manties also used for civilian housing, manufacturing and passenger & freight terminals for interstellar transport- probably in a cynical bid to protest their military by using their own citizens and any transient citizens of other Star Nations as human shields). The Alignment had NO CONTROL of where any of the debris might go. They were very very carefull not to strike at any purely civilian targets, mostly because they didn't want the whole EE question to come up and possibly bite them in the ass by potentialy motivating somebody (other than Manticore and Grayson) to come after them under the Edict. Somebody like the SL if Manticore could somehow poke a self-interest out of the League Bureaucracy, the SLN and a number of the Core Worlds that if this happed to us by parties unknown it could happen to you.

The Alignment does care about a few things, one of which is not getting the perception of themselves (who were at the time were still unknown) of being guilty of more than one EE -and here's the sticky part- before they actuly have control and it won't matter anymore.

The planets themselves were not targeted. Only legitimate MILITARY targets (that the multiple kilometer longs stations also included civilian facilities including civliian housing -along with military housing just not in the same places) civilian manufacturing, shipyards etc does't disqualify them.
At Grayson, they didn't have the same problem with collateral damage to the home planet as what was hit was Blackbird and it's orbital facilities- and the whole area was a military base. The orbitals around Grayson were not hit, mostly that was civilian anyway....and apparently the Alignment didn't have enough weapons or delivery ships to hit more than they did. Besides, blowing up several Civilian Orbital Farms with no military facilites on them would clearly have been an EE violation.
Of course all the discussion ignores the fact that there was no declared war, there was no demand for surrender -of anybody at any time by the Alignment-.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:26 am

cthia
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Posts: 12497
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Brigade XO wrote:Hitting the orbital stations around Manticore, Sphinx and Griffon was coverd as military targets as that was basing, defensive positions, command and control at each of the major stations plus there were a number of warships docked.
From the Alignment perspective -and probably any lawyer you want to talk to- that the debris from the stations both fell on the planets and caused loss of life was COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

They struck at LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS (which the foolish Manties also used for civilian housing, manufacturing and passenger & freight terminals for interstellar transport- probably in a cynical bid to protest their military by using their own citizens and any transient citizens of other Star Nations as human shields). The Alignment had NO CONTROL of where any of the debris might go. They were very very carefull not to strike at any purely civilian targets, mostly because they didn't want the whole EE question to come up and possibly bite them in the ass by potentialy motivating somebody (other than Manticore and Grayson) to come after them under the Edict. Somebody like the SL if Manticore could somehow poke a self-interest out of the League Bureaucracy, the SLN and a number of the Core Worlds that if this happed to us by parties unknown it could happen to you.

The Alignment does care about a few things, one of which is not getting the perception of themselves (who were at the time were still unknown) of being guilty of more than one EE -and here's the sticky part- before they actuly have control and it won't matter anymore.

The planets themselves were not targeted. Only legitimate MILITARY targets (that the multiple kilometer longs stations also included civilian facilities including civliian housing -along with military housing just not in the same places) civilian manufacturing, shipyards etc does't disqualify them.
At Grayson, they didn't have the same problem with collateral damage to the home planet as what was hit was Blackbird and it's orbital facilities- and the whole area was a military base. The orbitals around Grayson were not hit, mostly that was civilian anyway....and apparently the Alignment didn't have enough weapons or delivery ships to hit more than they did. Besides, blowing up several Civilian Orbital Farms with no military facilites on them would clearly have been an EE violation.
Of course all the discussion ignores the fact that there was no declared war, there was no demand for surrender -of anybody at any time by the Alignment-.


I should reread everything we've got thus far on Yildun. I thought one of the problems of hitting it was the inability to discern between the civilian and military habitats. But if the civilians are helping the military manufacture weapons, etc., then they are fair game as well.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:29 am

George J. Smith
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Brigade XO wrote:Hitting the orbital stations around Manticore, Sphinx and Griffon was coverd as military targets as that was basing, defensive positions, command and control at each of the major stations plus there were a number of warships docked.
From the Alignment perspective -and probably any lawyer you want to talk to- that the debris from the stations both fell on the planets and caused loss of life was COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

They struck at LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS (which the foolish Manties also used for civilian housing, manufacturing and passenger & freight terminals for interstellar transport- probably in a cynical bid to protest their military by using their own citizens and any transient citizens of other Star Nations as human shields). The Alignment had NO CONTROL of where any of the debris might go. They were very very carefull not to strike at any purely civilian targets, mostly because they didn't want the whole EE question to come up and possibly bite them in the ass by potentialy motivating somebody (other than Manticore and Grayson) to come after them under the Edict. Somebody like the SL if Manticore could somehow poke a self-interest out of the League Bureaucracy, the SLN and a number of the Core Worlds that if this happed to us by parties unknown it could happen to you.

The Alignment does care about a few things, one of which is not getting the perception of themselves (who were at the time were still unknown) of being guilty of more than one EE -and here's the sticky part- before they actuly have control and it won't matter anymore.

The planets themselves were not targeted. Only legitimate MILITARY targets (that the multiple kilometer longs stations also included civilian facilities including civliian housing -along with military housing just not in the same places) civilian manufacturing, shipyards etc does't disqualify them.
At Grayson, they didn't have the same problem with collateral damage to the home planet as what was hit was Blackbird and it's orbital facilities- and the whole area was a military base. The orbitals around Grayson were not hit, mostly that was civilian anyway....and apparently the Alignment didn't have enough weapons or delivery ships to hit more than they did. Besides, blowing up several Civilian Orbital Farms with no military facilites on them would clearly have been an EE violation.
Of course all the discussion ignores the fact that there was no declared war, there was no demand for surrender -of anybody at any time by the Alignment-.


Could it be that by not calling upon the system government to surrender, any attack would be an EE violation.
Last edited by George J. Smith on Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Joat42   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:00 am

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ldwechsler wrote:On the other hand, ordering all workers off an orbital factory and then destroying it would not be a violation since it would not be on a planet.

And just about all heavy manufacturing was now done in orbit on advanced worlds.

No, but if you happen to kill 18.7 million civilians that are in the process of evacuating residential habitats I guess some people wont split hairs on what counts as a planetary population. Especially since the system surrendered.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am

kzt
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George J. Smith wrote:Could it be that by not calling upon the system goverment to surrender, any attack would be an EE violation.

No. See when the RMN blew up Haven’s industries during raids in the second war. They usually warned Haven to evacuate the station but they mentioned that was pretty much because the were nice guys. There was no obligation to do so.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:06 pm

George J. Smith
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kzt wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:Could it be that by not calling upon the system goverment to surrender, any attack would be an EE violation.

No. See when the RMN blew up Haven’s industries during raids in the second war. They usually warned Haven to evacuate the station but they mentioned that was pretty much because the were nice guys. There was no obligation to do so.


But there was a declared war between Manticore & Haven, the raids by both sides were part of that war, and none of those raids - which were all on peripheral systems - could have triggered the demand for the central government to surrender.

There was no declared war between the Malign and Manticore & Grayson, not only were the attacks unprovoked, the Malign was not know by anyone outside of the Malign itself.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:10 pm

kzt
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George J. Smith wrote:But there was a declared war between Manticore & Haven, the raids by both sides were part of that war, and none of those raids - which were all on peripheral systems - could have triggered the demand for the central government to surrender.

There was no declared war between the Malign and Manticore & Grayson, not only were the attacks unprovoked, the Malign was not know by anyone outside of the Malign itself.

Nah, it was retaliation for green pines. :twisted:
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:17 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
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kzt wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:But there was a declared war between Manticore & Haven, the raids by both sides were part of that war, and none of those raids - which were all on peripheral systems - could have triggered the demand for the central government to surrender.

There was no declared war between the Malign and Manticore & Grayson, not only were the attacks unprovoked, the Malign was not know by anyone outside of the Malign itself.

Nah, it was retaliation for green pines. :twisted:



Why talk about declared wars? I think the last Declaration of War we actually had in this country was on Dec. 8, 1941 against Japan. The Germans declared war on US after that.

The Solarian League effectively declared war when Byng fired on those destroyers.

Let us also note that Mesa was NOT in the Solarian League although it did have a lot of leverage. And the attack on Manticore was planned long before Green Pines. Keep in mind as well that the Detweilers knew that it was not Zilwicki who did the bombing.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:45 am

kzt
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ldwechsler wrote:Let us also note that Mesa was NOT in the Solarian League although it did have a lot of leverage. And the attack on Manticore was planned long before Green Pines. Keep in mind as well that the Detweilers knew that it was not Zilwicki who did the bombing.

By that standard bin Laden wasn't responsible for 9/11, Tojo didn't have any responsibility for bombing Pearl Harbor, Hitler had no responsibility the Holocaust, and Churchill and Roosevelt had nothing to do with bombing German and Japaneses cities.

After all, they weren't there personally, so clearly it can't be their responsibility. Right?
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Joat42   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:37 am

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Let us also note that Mesa was NOT in the Solarian League although it did have a lot of leverage. And the attack on Manticore was planned long before Green Pines. Keep in mind as well that the Detweilers knew that it was not Zilwicki who did the bombing.

By that standard bin Laden wasn't responsible for 9/11, Tojo didn't have any responsibility for bombing Pearl Harbor, Hitler had no responsibility the Holocaust, and Churchill and Roosevelt had nothing to do with bombing German and Japaneses cities.

After all, they weren't there personally, so clearly it can't be their responsibility. Right?

Your reasoning is faulty in the extreme.

On one hand you have people doing tough choices out of necessity and on the other hand you have people initiating violence because of ideological or political ambitions.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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