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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:33 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Even if there was a with the lab in the Manticore system, the question of where and how a person (or any sublight ship) would be getting back and forth to it. If it was something stealthed OUTSIDE the hyperlimit, there is going to a lot of interest in why something with an impeller is wandering around out there- coming from inside the system or to/from a ship entering/leaving the system.

Freighter in orbit or docked at a station would be much easier and not draw so much attention though it's crew or passengers would have to pass though whatever security is set up for these things. Think comming into a country via an airport or ship terminal. A private yacht would also work. The questions with either a transport or yacht would be level of customs inspection and security access to either a station or ground.


No problem:

You need two identical freighters plus the lab ship. You start with the lab ship and a freighter parked near a shipping lane but a light year out.

The second freighter uses the same shipping lane, drops out at the closest approach to the lab--the twin is waiting there and enters hyper when it sees the first one drop out and carries on it's voyage.

It's far enough out the hyper translations and wedges won't be seen but a light year isn't that long in travel time.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:29 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:For something that HAS to be a great secret, having it done on Manticore would probably be an unacceptable risk.


The lab work probably wasn't done on Manticore. That doesn't preclude it being done in the Manticore system. A ship with diplomatic immunity or lying doggo in the outer system would do fine for a secret lab location; if it is outside the hyper-limit it is almost interception proof and a self-destruct takes care of the possibility of capture anywhere.

A "news-corp" dispatch boat probably has enough space for the lab, even with a Streak Drive's space requirement. A tramp freighter outside the hyper-limit would even have room for all sorts of muscle memory training.

FWIW, it doesn't seem to me that the muscle-memory training can be done with the victim's DNA directly. The muscle memory training could be done by anyone, anywhere and passed off as rehearsals for a drama. The participants don't even need to know the target or any other part of the plan; "accidents" could be arranged if necessary.

Interesting post. And quite logical. It’s the kind of world class thinking that gets one noticed by the Onion -- proposing that a “template” could be laid down first that would incorporate prior muscle memory programming. Which would be akin to common, canned, reusable nanite routines. Very interesting.

I considered the proposition of a dispatch boat being a good front for a lab as well. Matter of fact, the notion seems to be an obvious choice at first glance, IMO. I chose to dismiss the idea because of all of the mechanics that would be involved for a dispatch boat to pull it off. Thinking back to the same logistical problems inherent in using a dispatch boat to attempt a clandestine operation in the Endicott system when Honor foiled the plan.

In fact, the exact same logistical problems would be inherent -- Time. That of playing the waiting game while sitting in orbit. The dispatch boat wouldn't want to miss its window and there's no way they could know exactly when Fearless would be in Manticoran orbit. Or when Lt. Meares would be free of any prior responsibilities of his post before departing for ground side. IOW, intuitively, it seems that any such plan would had to have incorporated a weak [l k]ink in the plan -- a risky component of having to play the same waiting game that plagued Coglin's dispatch boat. Too much time in orbit would probably tend to be a bit suspicious. However, the notion of a ship lying doggo seems a better choice and one that was unseen by my eyes. Hey, it was lying doggo! LOL

But even a ship lying doggo doesn't seem to be free from its own logistical problems. There would have to be some type of courier between stealthed ship and orbit.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:33 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Even if there was a with the lab in the Manticore system, the question of where and how a person (or any sublight ship) would be getting back and forth to it. If it was something stealthed OUTSIDE the hyperlimit, there is going to a lot of interest in why something with an impeller is wandering around out there- coming from inside the system or to/from a ship entering/leaving the system.

Freighter in orbit or docked at a station would be much easier and not draw so much attention though it's crew or passengers would have to pass though whatever security is set up for these things. Think comming into a country via an airport or ship terminal. A private yacht would also work. The questions with either a transport or yacht would be level of customs inspection and security access to either a station or ground.


No problem:

You need two identical freighters plus the lab ship. You start with the lab ship and a freighter parked near a shipping lane but a light year out.

The second freighter uses the same shipping lane, drops out at the closest approach to the lab--the twin is waiting there and enters hyper when it sees the first one drop out and carries on it's voyage.

It's far enough out the hyper translations and wedges won't be seen but a light year isn't that long in travel time.


Interesting. However, a light year out may not generally represent much travel time, but I think it would be risking too much to ensure your very small window of catching Meares in a situation on planet, vulnerable and unawares.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:47 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:For something that HAS to be a great secret, having it done on Manticore would probably be an unacceptable risk.


The lab work probably wasn't done on Manticore. That doesn't preclude it being done in the Manticore system. A ship with diplomatic immunity or lying doggo in the outer system would do fine for a secret lab location; if it is outside the hyper-limit it is almost interception proof and a self-destruct takes care of the possibility of capture anywhere.

A "news-corp" dispatch boat probably has enough space for the lab, even with a Streak Drive's space requirement. A tramp freighter outside the hyper-limit would even have room for all sorts of muscle memory training.

FWIW, it doesn't seem to me that the muscle-memory training can be done with the victim's DNA directly. The muscle memory training could be done by anyone, anywhere and passed off as rehearsals for a drama. The participants don't even need to know the target or any other part of the plan; "accidents" could be arranged if necessary.

ldwechsler wrote:Again, extreme danger. Not many diplomatic immunity ships. The only likely ones would be from the Sollies. Same for newsies. All it would take is one person leaking to the Manties and they would have everything they need.

Of course, doing it on a planet that is a junction jump away might work pretty well.

Actually, the whole methodology seems preposterous. Somehow you will do something if certain conditions exist? Sounds awfully difficult to pull off.

What would have happened if Honor had stepped into an elevator just as her aide grabbed a gun and was no longer a target. What could he answer when the gun was taken away?

Even more to the point, what would have happened if someone had grabbed the guy while it was going on? Talk about revealing a whole ploy.
On another planet a junction away is too much time to take advantage of the very small window to catch Meares still on planet and in a vulnerable situation.

You bring up a very cogent and quite interesting scenario about Lt. Meares being captured before executing the plan. What then? Are contingencies built into the nanites? If Meares simply continues to be comatose and non responsive, surely his body can be researched for clues. And I doubt whether the nanite administered in spray form would contain a self-destruct protocol. Textev?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:55 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Using the Beowulf Embassy for a nanite weapon production against Manticore would presuppose all sorts of penetratration of Beowulf's diplomatic core or it's embasy staff at a very high scientifc capability level. Not likely or the Alignment would be likely getting all sorts of information about Beowulf's plans, intents, capabilities etc.

Even if there was a with the lab in the Manticore system, the question of where and how a person (or any sublight ship) would be getting back and forth to it. If it was something stealthed OUTSIDE the hyperlimit, there is going to a lot of interest in why something with an impeller is wandering around out there- coming from inside the system or to/from a ship entering/leaving the system.

Freighter in orbit or docked at a station would be much easier and not draw so much attention though it's crew or passengers would have to pass though whatever security is set up for these things. Think comming into a country via an airport or ship terminal. A private yacht would also work. The questions with either a transport or yacht would be level of customs inspection and security access to either a station or ground.

I probably is easier for someone to purchase the equipment, materials, supplies etc and create a (relatively) small & secure secret lab on Manticore than to do the work in orbit and have to have your agents travel back and forth off planet. Use the example of a Meth lab in present day.....apparently people create these all the time in ways that law enfrocement can't track or identify and they don't usually get discovered until there is either leads from other things like arresting or tracking people involved or somebody sees something odd - or the lab has a catastrophic accident. We have seen this weapon being used on Earth (the Haven Ambasador's driver- the head of the SLN), in the Aldermani Empire (attcking a member of the Imperial Family), on Haven and on Manticore though the person was triggered on a warship in orbit. Then there was the setting up Filerta's staff officer and we don't really know where he had been when he was infected.
You could have a lab (and people needed to do the full work) set up and then taken apart and discarded/destroyed at the component part level quietly. You probably (even the Alignment) would want the people extracted -also quietly-. If nobody is looking for them due to lack of connection to any problem it's tought to catch someone who's only incriminating evidence is in their head.
Brigade XO, you took the words right o9ut of my mouth. I concur with it all. Completely! One needs to be able to foresee these kinds of problems before drawing up such plans. It is the rare ability possessed by Damien Harahap. And it also gets you noticed and recruited by the Onion. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:13 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:If you are the Alignment, you probably aren't going to want to have some agent or stooge collect a sample of DNA, SHIP IT to Mesa (or espeicialy Darius) and then send back the tailored nanite by a similar route to infect the target.

Much more likely that you have some sort of kit or mini-lab which you would have to either earlier hidden on your target's planet or in a ship in orbit. Of course that means that the lab would be vulnerable to either detection while in transit to or on the planet or could be compromised and captured on the ground or with said ship.


We're talking about Manticore here, people. In other words - a nation with a medical establishment, second (and that only by a very tight margin) only to Beowulf and Mesa itself. You don't need to import your tools - you can buy or lease them locally and hide your papertrail as deep as you want.

Quite possible. OTOH, you could be jumping the gun on the hardware needed. It could be something not "on the shelves," something of a totally proprietary Malign design.

Honestly, I never saw the programming of the nanites to be a problem, after all I thought, they are simply computer circuitry at the sub atomic level?

I think the lab could be very compact and set up on planet. Or certainly assembled from compact sources.

Ships in space are very visible moving parts.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:13 pm

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cthia wrote:
Eagleeye wrote:We're talking about Manticore here, people. In other words - a nation with a medical establishment, second (and that only by a very tight margin) only to Beowulf and Mesa itself. You don't need to import your tools - you can buy or lease them locally and hide your papertrail as deep as you want.

Quite possible. OTOH, you could be jumping the gun on the hardware needed. It could be something not "on the shelves," something of a totally proprietary Malign design.

Honestly, I never saw the programming of the nanites to be a problem, after all I thought, they are simply computer circuitry at the sub atomic level?

I think the lab could be very compact and set up on planet. Or certainly assembled from compact sources.

Ships in space are very visible moving parts.


Even at that, the knowledge of what hardware Manticore has to offer is just a medical supply catalogue away. The one or 2 specialized non-available pieces required would be easy to sneak on planet - Even as medical sales demos or the like, with the rest of the lab locally sourced or leased. Heck, we know Manpower had it's finger in legitimate shell companies - why not just integrate the work into a known, working legitimate lab, with a normal output workflow?

Most Biolabs are going to have an incinerator onsite to routinely get rid of hazardous samples - and have ways to clean even the smallest levels of containments out of a workspace. If the lab is owned by a transstellar, having visiting scientists or quality/auditing groups would probably be the norm, so having visitors doing their own thing wouldn't be an odd occurrence.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:26 pm

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[/quote]Brigade XO, you took the words right o9ut of my mouth. I concur with it all. Completely! One needs to be able to foresee these kinds of problems before drawing up such plans. It is the rare ability possessed by Damien Harahap. And it also gets you noticed and recruited by the Onion. LOL[/quote]

That's an offer I really don't need nor wish to get. Some nice quiet workstation on a long term contract with RMN-ONI would be just fine:)
Preston of the Spaceways I am not......but teasing interesting stuff (or mistakes) out of mountains of paper and comming up with non-traditional workarounds for stuff....fun.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:55 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
Brigade XO, you took the words right o9ut of my mouth. I concur with it all. Completely! One needs to be able to foresee these kinds of problems before drawing up such plans. It is the rare ability possessed by Damien Harahap. And it also gets you noticed and recruited by the Onion. LOL[/quote]

That's an offer I really don't need nor wish to get. Some nice quiet workstation on a long term contract with RMN-ONI would be just fine:)
Preston of the Spaceways I am not......but teasing interesting stuff (or mistakes) out of mountains of paper and comming up with non-traditional workarounds for stuff....fun.[/quote]

Let's keep in mind that secrecy is the most vital element of the whole thing. If evidence could be provided of the source for the work, no defense would be possible.

The League would be faced by Anderman furious over an assassination attempt on the dynasty, Manticore furious over the killing of an ambassador on earth, Haven furious over the death of an ambassador, and Torch furious over the attempted assassination of its Queen that led to a lot of deaths.

If all of them said they wanted the Mesans really badly, that would be it. And it is also possible that someone who was caught knew about Renaissance, tc.

Far easier to do things off planet and make certain that anyone who might know anything important was nowhere near Manticore.

Not to mention that it might be used as a boomerang. If Manticore got the secret, there could be people used not to kill necessarily but to be spies, writing down information that could be used.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:56 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Not to mention that it might be used as a boomerang. If Manticore got the secret, there could be people used not to kill necessarily but to be spies, writing down information that could be used.


That wouldn't be very likely. The Assassin Nanos only affect muscle memory and the victim is mentally aware but disconnected. It pretty much has to be restricted to suicide missions only -- especially if secrecy is paramount. Anyone who survives can provide clues about who, how, and where the nanos were administered and will remember any address they sent information to if a way to program that extensive of an "event" into just muscle memory.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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