Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

No, it's that they have invested many decades into R&D, clearly developing entirely new fields of technology based on theories nobody else understands.

It's why the RMNs MDM monopoly is doomed in the near term, but their FTL tech will take far longer to clone. Everyone understands how to build a brute-force MDM. Building a megabit speed highly directional FTL transceiver that weighs single digit tons requires multiple different technologies to be developed, which first requires the theoretical understanding to be made.

And everyone understands that the RMNs FTL system works via grav pulses. It's just how you get there that is hard.

There is no evidence that anyone outside the MAN has a similar minimal fundamental understanding of the spider drive. They have no proof that it isn't actually just a really, really effective way to stealth an impeller.

ldwechsler wrote:Somehow the MAlign suddenly has all the good scientists and engineers. We've been told for quite a few books how great their genetics are but aside from making some slaves really pretty and others very strong...things that the GA is doing anyway in a more legal way, there is not a real lot of progress.

Yes, over 500 years they've developed a cool tool for assassination, a secret drive and a really fast one.

Their genetics/biotech is more than "pretty" and "strong". People who benefit from the top tier Mesan genetics are much longer lived, and they do have improved intelligence. Then you have the fun nano-tech like the Prolong booster, the rapid healing nanites, and probably a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet. Mesa has significantly put themselves ahead of Beowulf in the field of biotech. Furthermore, they've done this with a much smaller population than Beowulf, and the Darius population is growing fast, unlike more developed worlds.

They've also developed a drive based on new principles that no one else even knows about, and have cracked another two levels of hyperspace that no one has pulled off.

They are a somewhat behind in war tech. Which is to be expected when comparing them to people who have just been fighting a bunch of big wars! Combat tech advances much, much faster in war time.

Back to Darius though: one of the scary things about what they are doing, is that every generation will be larger and smarter than the one before. By pushing large family size and continuing their genetic research they rapidly increasing their abilities.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Their genetics/biotech is more than "pretty" and "strong". People who benefit from the top tier Mesan genetics are much longer lived, and they do have improved intelligence. Then you have the fun nano-tech like the Prolong booster, the rapid healing nanites, and probably a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet. Mesa has significantly put themselves ahead of Beowulf in the field of biotech. Furthermore, they've done this with a much smaller population than Beowulf, and the Darius population is growing fast, unlike more developed worlds.

They've also developed a drive based on new principles that no one else even knows about, and have cracked another two levels of hyperspace that no one has pulled off.

They are a somewhat behind in war tech. Which is to be expected when comparing them to people who have just been fighting a bunch of big wars! Combat tech advances much, much faster in war time.

And combat tech, especially in wartime, is kept as secret as possible. One of their minor advantages in bioengineering is that pretty much any research the rest of the galaxy is doing will have the results published in a fairly timely manner. (With the exception of anybody violating treaties and developing bioweapons).

But one huge advantage the MAlign have in bio and medical research is that they are willing to ignore constraints of morality and consent in their testing -- that allows them to far more quickly test risky possibilities. If you're willing to perform inhumane experiments, driven by actual science not just torture pretending to be science, you can learn far more quickly than people doing their ethical best not to harm patients or test subjects.

That advantage doesn't really exist when you're talking about other fields because testing that doesn't put humans or animals at risk is much easier there.

Still, there's no doubt that they've focused hard on R&D into both gen/bio and also other sciences and made some real breakthroughs.

Jonathan_S wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:Their genetics/biotech is more than "pretty" and "strong". People who benefit from the top tier Mesan genetics are much longer lived, and they do have improved intelligence. Then you have the fun nano-tech like the Prolong booster, the rapid healing nanites, and probably a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet. Mesa has significantly put themselves ahead of Beowulf in the field of biotech. Furthermore, they've done this with a much smaller population than Beowulf, and the Darius population is growing fast, unlike more developed worlds.

They've also developed a drive based on new principles that no one else even knows about, and have cracked another two levels of hyperspace that no one has pulled off.

They are a somewhat behind in war tech. Which is to be expected when comparing them to people who have just been fighting a bunch of big wars! Combat tech advances much, much faster in war time.

And combat tech, especially in wartime, is kept as secret as possible. One of their minor advantages in bioengineering is that pretty much any research the rest of the galaxy is doing will have the results published in a fairly timely manner. (With the exception of anybody violating treaties and developing bioweapons).

But one huge advantage the MAlign have in bio and medical research is that they are willing to ignore constraints of morality and consent in their testing -- that allows them to far more quickly test risky possibilities. If you're willing to perform inhumane experiments, driven by actual science not just torture pretending to be science, you can learn far more quickly than people doing their ethical best not to harm patients or test subjects.

That advantage doesn't really exist when you're talking about other fields because testing that doesn't put humans or animals at risk is much easier there.

Still, there's no doubt that they've focused hard on R&D into both gen/bio and also other sciences and made some real breakthroughs.

Actually we've some very little of that genetic tech. We have seen Paolo who is very good looking thanks to the tech and Sying-ni who is startling looking as well as attractive.

We know that there are people like Hugh Arai who are really strong.

But we have seen a lot of attractive people without the Mesan genetics. Henke is supposed to have had a "harem" of good looking male officers on her ships. The people from San Martino are very strong, etc.

As for super-smart, we have seen little of that. Somehow, they are like Wiley Coyote, always being defeated. Houdini was rushed because of poor intelligence, thus losing Albrecht.

All the maneuvering with Byng, Crandall and Filareta is becoming clear to others. Now this might have been planned but it doesn't seem all that likely.

The combat enhancements have not been seen.

As for long life...prolong is all over the place. And we have seen very few people with diseases throughout Manticore.

Keep in mind that Hitler was convinced that his troops were supermen. But they died pretty quick when facing opposition.

ldwechsler wrote:As for super-smart, we have seen little of that. Somehow, they are like Wiley Coyote, always being defeated. Houdini was rushed because of poor intelligence, thus losing Albrecht.

They've basically won at this point. The goal of their maneuvering was to create a situation in the galaxy where the RF would be seen as the only real power block. All others would either be in shambles or discredited. That's about done. The Mandarins are about to start their killing spree and the GA has just been framed for mass murder. They also have Darius where they can work out their whole bio-singularity thing.

All they need to do now is not screw up. The GA doesn't know where Darius is. They don't know about the RF. Every trace on Mesa just got turned into ash.

Smart doesn't mean you can always pick a single linear plan, and then predict the exact outcome. On the contrary, being smart means knowing you don't know everything, and you can't predict everything. It means the ability to rapidly assimilate, integrate, and utilize new information.

ldwechsler wrote:As for long life...prolong is all over the place. And we have seen very few people with diseases throughout Manticore.

The Mesan stuff builds on it even further. The lives of people with the best Malign tech are long compared to people with just Prolong.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:As for super-smart, we have seen little of that. Somehow, they are like Wiley Coyote, always being defeated. Houdini was rushed because of poor intelligence, thus losing Albrecht.

They've basically won at this point. The goal of their maneuvering was to create a situation in the galaxy where the RF would be seen as the only real power block. All others would either be in shambles or discredited. That's about done. The Mandarins are about to start their killing spree and the GA has just been framed for mass murder. They also have Darius where they can work out their whole bio-singularity thing.

All they need to do now is not screw up. The GA doesn't know where Darius is. They don't know about the RF. Every trace on Mesa just got turned into ash.

Smart doesn't mean you can always pick a single linear plan, and then predict the exact outcome. On the contrary, being smart means knowing you don't know everything, and you can't predict everything. It means the ability to rapidly assimilate, integrate, and utilize new information.

The GA is in the same position with Darius that they were with Bolthole. They know - or will realise very shortly - that it exists (because Anton worked out what was happening with Houdini). But they don't know where it is.

While the GA might not know about the RF in detail, they've already figured out that part of the plan is to destroy the Solarian League. So what's going to take its place? Something like the Maya Sector - with advance plans in place.

RFC has, in fact, placed enough clues for the GA to figure quite a lot out. Anton's worked out Houdini; Torch is going to start wondering why their wormhole is important if it's so deadly, Maya will probably be able to spot other sectors that laid their takeover plans in advance.

It's possible that finding Darius is the problem for Raoul and Katherine's generation, with our current young Ensigns and Lt JG as their Captains and Admirals. But the clues have been planted.

We'll have to wait and see about whether the attempted framing will work. If I recall correctly, Mesa didn't think Haven's Navy would turn up with the RMN at Mesa. They also didn't realise that Manticore and Haven had agents on the planet, one of whom was capable of working out the traffic increase and what it meant. The destruction of the spacegoing traffic control was undoubtedly meant to destroy the evidence - but they didn't realise Anton had already found it.

There are also survivors off-Mesa. That transit space station that almost certainly was meant to be blown up later, and didn't get blown up because the BSG and Torch raided it. One of the minor (surviving) characters is very specifically mentioned as wondering why they were getting so much traffic from Mesa...

In general, while I'm fairly sure Hanrahan's broadcast will play for the Solarian League (which is where it's aimed), there's enough counter-evidence to convince the GA that this is another Mesan propaganda ploy.

As for super-intelligent - history is full of very smart people who had a problem with actual reality. And you don't run a six hundred year old conspiracy without having a serious problem with reality. The Alignment are a bunch of lunatics, indoctrinated since birth into believing their own version of the universe. The one in which their genetic manipulation makes them superior.

Except ... the evidence in the books is that what works best isn't planned gengineering. It's the combination of gengineering for specific qualities or medical problems (surviving heavy gravity) with natural evolution. Design the Meyerdahl variation, send it out into the universe, let it interbreed with 'normal' people - and you end up with Alfred, Honor and Raoul Harrington. All of whom could give a Mesan Alpha line a run for its money.
From what genetic line did super-spy Victor Cachat come? Anton Zilwicki?

The Mesans are betting that planned improvement will beat statistics. But in a universe full of billions upon billions of people, many of whom have gengineering in their family tree (even if they don't know it), statistics says that there are going to be a lot of people out there who can equal an 'Alpha line.'

Bluesqueak wrote:If I recall correctly, Mesa didn't think Haven's Navy would turn up with the RMN at Mesa. They also didn't realise that Manticore and Haven had agents on the planet, one of whom was capable of working out the traffic increase and what it meant. The destruction of the spacegoing traffic control was undoubtedly meant to destroy the evidence - but they didn't realise Anton had already found it.

They were pretty obvious given the whole huge tower thing went on for weeks.

kzt wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:If I recall correctly, Mesa didn't think Haven's Navy would turn up with the RMN at Mesa. They also didn't realise that Manticore and Haven had agents on the planet, one of whom was capable of working out the traffic increase and what it meant. The destruction of the spacegoing traffic control was undoubtedly meant to destroy the evidence - but they didn't realise Anton had already found it.

They were pretty obvious given the whole huge tower thing went on for weeks.

Anton was already in space, with evidence, heading for Honor's ship by the time the whole huge tower thing even started. I've just finished re-reading Cauldron of Ghosts - the timetable is:

1. Houdini starts. At this point the Detweiler's have no clue that Anton, Victor et al. are on Mesa again.

2. Anton detects that there's an unusual amount of system traffic. Leaving. He cross references this against a number of things (fashion purchases!)

3. The Terrible Two realise that the 'terrorist strikes' are a way to hide the number of people leaving, and realise the balloon is about to go up. The Alignment is evacuating Mesa.

4. Anton rushes to Honor with the evidence.

5. The balloon goes up, and the Last Stand at the Alamo, sorry, Rostock happens.

6. Anton delivers his message to Honor. Only to discover, when he arrives, that Adm. Gold Peak has already headed off to Mesa.

Bluesqueak wrote:So what's going to take its place? Something like the Maya Sector - with advance plans in place.

Here's the problem: The RF isn't making any obvious advance plans. Consider their SDFs. While some RF nations do have significant SDFs, many of them have no real SDFs, while a system that was preparing for League break up could have an SDF that's larger than Manticore's Fleet. Honestly, they're probably behind the Maya sector in military might.

Consider the political response the RF has. They're acting slower than Beowulf when it comes to leaving. Similarly, they are aware that the Maya sector was prepping to break away, even before this stuff started happening.

But the biggest issue, is that the Solarian League break up was predicted by people who didn't have anything to do with the Malign. The Maya sector is proof of that. Long story short, if they try to figure out who had advance plans and then go after them, they'll probably end up attacking someone like the Maya sector.

Its entirely possible there are one or more groups of Solarian systems that have also been preparing for the Solarian break up, have been keeping up with the tech in the Haven sector, and have constructed a large fleet, all while having had absolutely nothing to do with the Malign.

In general, while I'm fairly sure Hanrahan's broadcast will play for the Solarian League (which is where it's aimed), there's enough counter-evidence to convince the GA that this is another Mesan propaganda ploy.

There really isn't any counter evidence. At best Manticore keeps the activities of Anton and Victor secret, and can show that there was an evacuation of the rich, powerful and cautious. But that just means some people predicted that Manticore would go beat up its most hated enemy at some point after getting the bridge to Talbot.

Worst case scenario is one of the Manties involved in the attack on Mesa confesses to nuking Mesa before committing suicide.

Except ... the evidence in the books is that what works best isn't planned gengineering. It's the combination of gengineering for specific qualities or medical problems (surviving heavy gravity) with natural evolution. Design the Meyerdahl variation, send it out into the universe, let it interbreed with 'normal' people - and you end up with Alfred, Honor and Raoul Harrington. All of whom could give a Mesan Alpha line a run for its money.

That sounds like a massively parallel optimization program. Which produces occasional heroes it seems.

Darius has billions of Star Line individuals. If the non-star line best can only give Star-Lines a "run for their money", things look grim for our heroes. And I don't think the planning board doesn't control the breeding of everyone.

Bluesqueak wrote:From what genetic line did super-spy Victor Cachat come? Anton Zilwicki?

The spies who screwed up so badly they are galaxy famous and nuked a park full of children?

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:So what's going to take its place? Something like the Maya Sector - with advance plans in place.

Here's the problem: The RF isn't making any obvious advance plans. Consider their SDFs. While some RF nations do have significant SDFs, many of them have no real SDFs, while a system that was preparing for League break up could have an SDF that's larger than Manticore's Fleet. Honestly, they're probably behind the Maya sector in military might.

Consider the political response the RF has. They're acting slower than Beowulf when it comes to leaving. Similarly, they are aware that the Maya sector was prepping to break away, even before this stuff started happening.

But the biggest issue, is that the Solarian League break up was predicted by people who didn't have anything to do with the Malign. The Maya sector is proof of that. Long story short, if they try to figure out who had advance plans and then go after them, they'll probably end up attacking someone like the Maya sector.

Its entirely possible there are one or more groups of Solarian systems that have also been preparing for the Solarian break up, have been keeping up with the tech in the Haven sector, and have constructed a large fleet, all while having had absolutely nothing to do with the Malign.

I have no problem with you wanting to break up a long post into separate quotes, but could you attribute them properly, rather than just using the quote button? It's a bit of a nightmare to work out who said what when, and how I make it clear in my reply. Not to mention all the html reformatting I have to do, which I may have got wrong.

Okay. The RF hasn't made any obvious plans. IF, that is, no one is looking for any advance plans beyond 'the Solarian League is cracking at the seams.' The Maya sector hadn't made any obvious plans either, until Torch, and even after Torch, their plans were only 'obvious' to the Star Nations connected with Torch. They're still not 'obvious' to the Solarian League. They are, however, now 'obvious' to Manticore, Haven, Erewhon and Torch.

A situation where no-one has any idea that there's a generations long secret conspiracy of genetic supervillains, some of whom are also part of a generations long 'sleeper agent' conspiracy - is quite different from a situation where people know there's such a conspiracy and are actively looking for it.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:In general, while I'm fairly sure Hanrahan's broadcast will play for the Solarian League (which is where it's aimed), there's enough counter-evidence to convince the GA that this is another Mesan propaganda ploy.

There really isn't any counter evidence. At best Manticore keeps the activities of Anton and Victor secret, and can show that there was an evacuation of the rich, powerful and cautious. But that just means some people predicted that Manticore would go beat up its most hated enemy at some point after getting the bridge to Talbot.

Worst case scenario is one of the Manties involved in the attack on Mesa confesses to nuking Mesa before committing suicide.

I've just re-read the 'Crown of Slaves' series and Rise of Thunder. There's counter-evidence all over the place. Probably not sufficient for a court of law, but certainly enough to convince Pat Givens, Queen Elizabeth, President Pritchard and all the Grand Alliance. In addition, Mesa's bio-weapon can't make someone confess to something; it relies on muscle memory, not reprogramming the brain. They could make Rajani commit suicide - the movements were relatively simple. But they couldn't make him write a suicide note. Or dictate a last message.

And as Kzt just pointed out, it's going to be awfully difficult to keep the activities of Thandi, Victor and Yana secret. They're now planetary grade heroes amongst the Seccies (and quite possibly among the slaves).

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Except ... the evidence in the books is that what works best isn't planned gengineering. It's the combination of gengineering for specific qualities or medical problems (surviving heavy gravity) with natural evolution. Design the Meyerdahl variation, send it out into the universe, let it interbreed with 'normal' people - and you end up with Alfred, Honor and Raoul Harrington. All of whom could give a Mesan Alpha line a run for its money.

That sounds like a massively parallel optimization program. Which produces occasional heroes it seems.

Darius has billions of Star Line individuals. If the non-star line best can only give Star-Lines a "run for their money", things look grim for our heroes. And I don't think the planning board doesn't control the breeding of everyone.

You need to look more carefully at those 'Star Lines'. Yes, they produce intelligent, long lived people like Jack and his brother Zach. Which is undoubtedly why such people think their method of planned breeding is superior.

But the textev is there; the Mesan Alignment is having the same problems you get with any breeding programme that uses linebreeding. As they reduce genetic diversity, the various lines display the wanted characteristics, but also display an increased amount of unwanted characteristics.

The Mesan Alignment solves this by culling the unwanted characteristics - which is a euphemism for 'we murder small children'. Or, worse, they continue with lines that have demonstrably developed fatal genetic conditions, because those lines include wanted characteristics. Think how many 'Star Lines' produce out-and-out psychos, or even just (George Vickers) narcissism.

How frequently does this happen? How many 'culls' (murders) are needed for their 'Star Lines' genetic planning to look like it works as well as natural breeding?

Well, when the Simoes are asked to adopt Frankie, they seem unsurprised that a child of Long Range Planning might develop a fatal condition. When Lajos needs children's bodies, those bodies are provided from the culls.

They are murdering a lot of kids to get these 'Star Lines'. And when those 'Star Lines' go head-to-head with the 'normals' of Manticore and Haven, they are definitely not having it all their own way.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:From what genetic line did super-spy Victor Cachat come? Anton Zilwicki?

The spies who screwed up so badly they are galaxy famous and nuked a park full of children?

I've just read that bit. Your description isn't accurate. The plan was to use construction explosives to destroy an abandoned stadium, in order to cover the defection of Jack and Herlander. When it became clear that was no longer necessary, because Jack was going to blow the Gamma Centre, the order was given to abort the mission. Then David Pritchard decided to take his nuke to Pine Valley Park.

Neither Victor nor Anton stole the construction nuke. Neither Victor or Anton put David Pritchard in charge of it. Neither Victor or Anton ordered that it be used on a park full of kids. In fact, David Pritchard is told by the group of people who can give him orders (which isn't Victor or Anton) that he's to minimise loss of life. David's told to abort and disobeys those orders.

Neither Anton or Victor wanted to use nukes in the first place: "That was exactly the reason Hansen and his group - certainly David Pritchard - were so determined to use nuclear explosives."

So, basically, you're insisting they're responsible for what other people did. They didn't steal the nuke, they didn't want to use nukes in place of smaller explosives, they didn't want David Pritchard in charge of the nuke - and the only way they could have stopped any of that would be either by leaving the locator beacon running so that they all got caught, or by killing Pritchard when he hadn't actually done anything crazy ...