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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:49 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:We know from RFC's posts that even current Apollo can be handed off within the same squadron because his post (saved in the Pearls) about keyhole platform survivability talks about how control of an Apollo salvo, launched from multiple podnaughts, will be passed from ship to ship to allow different Keyhole II's to take turns transmitting (to make it much harder to track them by their emissions)

With some pre-coordination they could probably be handed off to a Keyhole II equipped ship that's down-range - but setting up the engagment geometry would be a little dicy; you'd need the "forward missile controller" ship to be close to in-line between the launch points and the target.

And of course Mycroft is based on dotting the system with FTL fire control relays to let you control Apollo missiles out to at least as far as the hyper limit - they'd get handed off to multiple relays during such a launch.


So what specifically did you want to do with the hand-off capability? It might be possible now, or could be possibly with Mycroft. The main limitation, it would seem to me, is the relatively limited number of ships that mount the Keyhole II necessary to take handed off FTL fire control.
My bold to call attention.

cthia wrote:To further increase the range of Apollo and/or to decrease the FTL lag. And to augment/supplement/support ships that are much closer to the action that may have to shoot themselves dry.

Beowulf could use a moon base crammed to the hilt with Apollo missiles, which would significantly decrease the number of Keyhole II-capable ships needed in Beowulf space.

For he who failed the Crusher. The Crusher crushes. *shrugs*

If this notion is possible, what would be the best method of executing it? Would a Keyhole II capable ship that is closer to the action send FTL commands to initiate launch of the missiles from the moon base? Or would the moon base launch on its own accord?

I would guess the moon base would have to trigger the launch - though quite possible because the fire control ship's captain ordered the launch via FTL comm link.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that in order to squeeze the FTL transceiver into the Apollo control missile they took some shortcuts - like only having the FTL receive arrays cover the aft quadrent -- so the missile would have to fly past a relay before it could take control of them. (Plus if they were omnidirectional that might make it easier for a targeted enemy to try and jam them with FTL "white noise".

So if you did a long shot manouver where a moon base or system defense pod fired but the terminal FTL control would be under a downrange SD(P) (or Mycroft node) I'd assume the missiles would be under the control of the launch platform, or under internal control, until they passed the fire control ship and it could establish links to them...
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:17 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:We know from RFC's posts that even current Apollo can be handed off within the same squadron because his post (saved in the Pearls) about keyhole platform survivability talks about how control of an Apollo salvo, launched from multiple podnaughts, will be passed from ship to ship to allow different Keyhole II's to take turns transmitting (to make it much harder to track them by their emissions)

With some pre-coordination they could probably be handed off to a Keyhole II equipped ship that's down-range - but setting up the engagment geometry would be a little dicy; you'd need the "forward missile controller" ship to be close to in-line between the launch points and the target.

And of course Mycroft is based on dotting the system with FTL fire control relays to let you control Apollo missiles out to at least as far as the hyper limit - they'd get handed off to multiple relays during such a launch.


So what specifically did you want to do with the hand-off capability? It might be possible now, or could be possibly with Mycroft. The main limitation, it would seem to me, is the relatively limited number of ships that mount the Keyhole II necessary to take handed off FTL fire control.
My bold to call attention.

cthia wrote:To further increase the range of Apollo and/or to decrease the FTL lag. And to augment/supplement/support ships that are much closer to the action that may have to shoot themselves dry.

Beowulf could use a moon base crammed to the hilt with Apollo missiles, which would significantly decrease the number of Keyhole II-capable ships needed in Beowulf space.

For he who failed the Crusher. The Crusher crushes. *shrugs*

If this notion is possible, what would be the best method of executing it? Would a Keyhole II capable ship that is closer to the action send FTL commands to initiate launch of the missiles from the moon base? Or would the moon base launch on its own accord?

Jonathan_S wrote:I would guess the moon base would have to trigger the launch - though quite possible because the fire control ship's captain ordered the launch via FTL comm link.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that in order to squeeze the FTL transceiver into the Apollo control missile they took some shortcuts - like only having the FTL receive arrays cover the aft quadrent -- so the missile would have to fly past a relay before it could take control of them. (Plus if they were omnidirectional that might make it easier for a targeted enemy to try and jam them with FTL "white noise".

So if you did a long shot manouver where a moon base or system defense pod fired but the terminal FTL control would be under a downrange SD(P) (or Mycroft node) I'd assume the missiles would be under the control of the launch platform, or under internal control, until they passed the fire control ship and it could establish links to them...

Ah, I see. Thanks.

The discussion has sparked another question I've always had since At All Costs. When Honor opened a channel to Tourville and delivered my favorite one-liner...

"We meet again, Admiral Tourville," she said. And her soprano voice was cold.


was relayed with the FTL capabilities of a Hermes Buoy. Could the FTL capability of these buoys play an emergency role in missile control? Honor somewhat stated that they were seeded throughout the system.

Come to think of it, I don't understand why Ghost Rider drones aren't seeded throughout the system ready to come online in a moments notice.

Aside:
Speaking of "white noise" get a load of China’s claim it has ‘quantum’ radar may leave $17 billion F-35 naked.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:29 pm

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JonathanS wrote: I would guess the moon base would have to trigger the launch - though quite possible because the fire control ship's captain ordered the launch via FTL comm link.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that in order to squeeze the FTL transceiver into the Apollo control missile they took some shortcuts - like only having the FTL receive arrays cover the aft quadrent -- so the missile would have to fly past a relay before it could take control of them. (Plus if they were omnidirectional that might make it easier for a targeted enemy to try and jam them with FTL "white noise".

So if you did a long shot manouver where a moon base or system defense pod fired but the terminal FTL control would be under a downrange SD(P) (or Mycroft node) I'd assume the missiles would be under the control of the launch platform, or under internal control, until they passed the fire control ship and it could establish links to them...


In SoV, we found out that the ACMS in a salvo can mesh network their brood's sensor capability and can collectively make attack decisions for the entire salvo. I do not believe that it was mentioned if it was light speed links or FTL. But it does indicate broadside communications links for more than just missile control.
Last edited by Theemile on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by munroburton   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:33 pm

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cthia wrote:Ah, I see. Thanks.

The discussion has sparked another question I've always had since At All Costs. When Honor opened a channel to Tourville and delivered my favorite one-liner...

"We meet again, Admiral Tourville," she said. And her soprano voice was cold.


was relayed with the FTL capabilities of a Hermes Buoy. Could the FTL capability of these buoys play an emergency role in missile control? Honor somewhat stated that they were seeded throughout the system.


Yes. Indeed, using the Hermes as relays was how Eighth Fleet controlled the small 60-missile salvo they fired at Tourville to bluff him into surrendering.

Its bandwidth is very limited, however.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:22 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:Ah, I see. Thanks.

The discussion has sparked another question I've always had since At All Costs. When Honor opened a channel to Tourville and delivered my favorite one-liner...

"We meet again, Admiral Tourville," she said. And her soprano voice was cold.


was relayed with the FTL capabilities of a Hermes Buoy. Could the FTL capability of these buoys play an emergency role in missile control? Honor somewhat stated that they were seeded throughout the system.
munroburton wrote:Yes. Indeed, using the Hermes as relays was how Eighth Fleet controlled the small 60-missile salvo they fired at Tourville to bluff him into surrendering.

Its bandwidth is very limited, however.

I don't know whether to be disheartened that I missed that detail or astonished at my intact logic that suggests the capability to be feasible.

It seems that the solution to the bandwidth problem is sitting right in front of us and seeded throughout the system—the abundance of the platforms themselves. Honor implied that they certainly aren't scarce.

On the outside, it seems like a possible software problem at first intuitive glance to use platforms that are reasonably close in proximity to augment bandwidth. There may or may not be any tradeoffs, but whatever the end result would be infinitely more effective than not being able to control any missiles with any targeting solutions from the possibly impossible ranges of a moon base. Especially if a fleet is shooting itself dry.

It is a consideration and capability that may prove to be significant against an enemy whose stealth's effectiveness you are unsure of. An inordinate amount of missiles may be needed to defeat the Alignment navy when they come loaded for bear and bringing all toys.

If the Alignment has their own Shannon Foraker and or Sonja Hemphill who are also Alpha's with plenty of time to invent and develop with no pressure of war...

And if Manticore becomes lax and simply rest on their laurels and fail to keep the momentum of their inventiveness fresh and additionally squeeze every bit of blood out of their current tech...

Then perhaps the fat lady may have to get a new wardrobe before she runs out of engagements.

Especially with the way we've been screaming at RFC about a storyline that's simply being rude to baby chicks.

Which I'd like to make absolutely clear that I wasn't to be found in that group of pitchforkers. My logical self informs me of the price to be paid for feisty chicks. You tend to lose some of your favorite characters when the chicks are really cocky roosters.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:16 pm

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:Yes. Indeed, using the Hermes as relays was how Eighth Fleet controlled the small 60-missile salvo they fired at Tourville to bluff him into surrendering.

Its bandwidth is very limited, however.

I don't know whether to be disheartened that I missed that detail or astonished at my intact logic that suggests the capability to be feasible.

It seems that the solution to the bandwidth problem is sitting right in front of us and seeded throughout the system—the abundance of the platforms themselves. Honor implied that they certainly aren't scarce.

On the outside, it seems like a possible software problem at first intuitive glance to use platforms that are reasonably close in proximity to augment bandwidth. There may or may not be any tradeoffs, but whatever the end result would be infinitely more effective than not being able to control any missiles with any targeting solutions from the possibly impossible ranges of a moon base. Especially if a fleet is shooting itself dry.

It is a consideration and capability that may prove to be significant against an enemy whose stealth's effectiveness you are unsure of. An inordinate amount of missiles may be needed to defeat the Alignment navy when they come loaded for bear and bringing all toys.

A Hermes buoy, as far as we know, mounts no defenses and isn't hardened against nukes. It would be a very fragile basis for a long ranged missile strike. Also in addition to it's limit bandwidth it probably has shorter range for missile control than a Keyhole II.
It's better than nothing in an emergency, but a canny enemy could target and kill nearby bouys (possible with missile launched nukes, possible with mistletoe style pre-positioned drones) and if done after missile launch you're entire launch then has no terminal control and likely fails to even see the target...


Far better to do what Manticore is in the process of doing which is seeding the system with military grade, defended, stealthy (and I believe slightly mobile) Mycroft FTL fire control relays.

Those can handle far more missiles per relay than the improvised lash-up of a Hermes buoy and is vastly more survivable since it mounts the ECM, sidewalls, and PDLCs of a Keyhole II (and who knows, by the time Hemphill finished cramming things into it it might mount CMs or Vipers too)

A Rising Thunder wrote:Honor, as the unwilling beta tester for Shannon Foraker’s Moriarity system, had developed a profound respect for the effectiveness of massed MDM pods in the system-defense role. Michelle Henke’s success at Spindle had reconfirmed that respect even before Filareta’s spectacular demise. Which was why Honor had devoted quite a bit of thought to ways in which Moriarity’s system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire-control stations could be updated to take advantage of the Mark 23 and the Mark 23-E. The answer Hemphill had come up with was Mycroft, named for a character out of the same pre-space detective fiction which had given Foraker Moriarity in the first place.
Essentially, Mycroft was simply a couple of dozen Keyhole-Two platforms parked at various points in a star system. It was a little more complicated than that, since the platforms were designed to operate on beamed power from their motherships, so it was necessary to provide each platform with its own power plant. And it was also necessary to provide the raw fire control and the rest of the supporting hardware and software which was normally parked aboard the platform’s deploying ship-of-the-wall. Those were relatively straightforward problems in engineering, however, especially with an entire planet to work with, and tech crews were working at breakneck pace even as Honor stood with her uncle and her spouses to meet them.
Mycroft’s advantages over Moriarity would be profound. Unlimited by Moriarity’s lightspeed control links, Mycroft would be able to take full advantage of the Mark 23-E and the FTL reconnaissance platforms which were also being thickly seeded throughout the system’s volume. And unlike Moriarity—which had been unarmed and defenseless when Honor used Hemphill’s Baldur to take it out—Keyhole-Two platforms were simply crammed with active antimissile defenses. No doubt they could be taken out, but it would be a difficult task, and enough of them were being deployed as part of Mycroft to ensure survivability through sheer redundancy.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:53 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:
Its bandwidth is very limited, however.

I don't know whether to be disheartened that I missed that detail or astonished at my intact logic that suggests the capability to be feasible.

It seems that the solution to the bandwidth problem is sitting right in front of us and seeded throughout the system—the abundance of the platforms themselves. Honor implied that they certainly aren't scarce.

On the outside, it seems like a possible software problem at first intuitive glance to use platforms that are reasonably close in proximity to augment bandwidth. There may or may not be any tradeoffs, but whatever the end result would be infinitely more effective than not being able to control any missiles with any targeting solutions from the possibly impossible ranges of a moon base. Especially if a fleet is shooting itself dry.

It is a consideration and capability that may prove to be significant against an enemy whose stealth's effectiveness you are unsure of. An inordinate amount of missiles may be needed to defeat the Alignment navy when they come loaded for bear and bringing all toys.

A Hermes buoy, as far as we know, mounts no defenses and isn't hardened against nukes. It would be a very fragile basis for a long ranged missile strike. Also in addition to it's limit bandwidth it probably has shorter range for missile control than a Keyhole II.
It's better than nothing in an emergency, but a canny enemy could target and kill nearby bouys (possible with missile launched nukes, possible with mistletoe style pre-positioned drones) and if done after missile launch you're entire launch then has no terminal control and likely fails to even see the target...


Far better to do what Manticore is in the process of doing which is seeding the system with military grade, defended, stealthy (and I believe slightly mobile) Mycroft FTL fire control relays.

Those can handle far more missiles per relay than the improvised lash-up of a Hermes buoy and is vastly more survivable since it mounts the ECM, sidewalls, and PDLCs of a Keyhole II (and who knows, by the time Hemphill finished cramming things into it it might mount CMs or Vipers too)

A Rising Thunder wrote:Honor, as the unwilling beta tester for Shannon Foraker’s Moriarity system, had developed a profound respect for the effectiveness of massed MDM pods in the system-defense role. Michelle Henke’s success at Spindle had reconfirmed that respect even before Filareta’s spectacular demise. Which was why Honor had devoted quite a bit of thought to ways in which Moriarity’s system-wide network of dispersed sensor and fire-control stations could be updated to take advantage of the Mark 23 and the Mark 23-E. The answer Hemphill had come up with was Mycroft, named for a character out of the same pre-space detective fiction which had given Foraker Moriarity in the first place.
Essentially, Mycroft was simply a couple of dozen Keyhole-Two platforms parked at various points in a star system. It was a little more complicated than that, since the platforms were designed to operate on beamed power from their motherships, so it was necessary to provide each platform with its own power plant. And it was also necessary to provide the raw fire control and the rest of the supporting hardware and software which was normally parked aboard the platform’s deploying ship-of-the-wall. Those were relatively straightforward problems in engineering, however, especially with an entire planet to work with, and tech crews were working at breakneck pace even as Honor stood with her uncle and her spouses to meet them.
Mycroft’s advantages over Moriarity would be profound. Unlimited by Moriarity’s lightspeed control links, Mycroft would be able to take full advantage of the Mark 23-E and the FTL reconnaissance platforms which were also being thickly seeded throughout the system’s volume. And unlike Moriarity—which had been unarmed and defenseless when Honor used Hemphill’s Baldur to take it out—Keyhole-Two platforms were simply crammed with active antimissile defenses. No doubt they could be taken out, but it would be a difficult task, and enough of them were being deployed as part of Mycroft to ensure survivability through sheer redundancy.
[/quote]

Henke first used several ship carried Hermes buoy at Salon to control what was left of her wounded Agamemnon's pods as a Havenite SD squadron rolled up on her. She had ~300 pods, and the Hermes buoys were only able to tell the pods to "aim over there-ish... and fire!" using the hastily made lashup her tac department was able to set up.

4200 mk-16 missiles surprise fired inside energy range from behind the advancing squadron were only able to destroy a couple BCs (presumedly, upgraded Warlords) and damage a couple more - due to the limited FTL lashup Hermes allowed.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just about as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:23 pm

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Theemile wrote:Henke first used several ship carried Hermes buoy at Salon to control what was left of her wounded Agamemnon's pods as a Havenite SD squadron rolled up on her. She had ~300 pods, and the Hermes buoys were only able to tell the pods to "aim over there-ish... and fire!" using the hastily made lashup her tac department was able to set up.

4200 mk-16 missiles surprise fired inside energy range from behind the advancing squadron were only able to destroy a couple BCs (presumedly, upgraded Warlords) and damage a couple more - due to the limited FTL lashup Hermes allowed.

Yes, that's described the 2nd time that battle is described (1st in AAC, 2nd in Storm from the Shadows)

Of course unlike the Mk23's Honor used with Hermes as a bluff during the Battle of Manticore the Mk16's Ajax dropped couldn't receive FTL updates from Hermes at all. Basically all Hermes did was reduce the pre-launch update lag as Ajax continued her slow acceleration away from the impromptu minefield of pods full of Mk16s. Ghost Rider drones fed the latest info on the targets to Ajax via FTL, Ajax pushed that to the Hermes buoys dropped near the pods via FTL, and the Hermes buoys pushed the targetting updates into the missiles resting in their pods via comm laser (or possibly short ranged radio - but lightspeed links)

Then the launch order went from Ajax to the missiles the same way; Ajax to Hermes, Hermes to pods. But it sounds like once the missiles fired they were basically hands off -- even less control that Honor could give the Mk23s.

Storm from the Shadows wrote:Any sort of precise fire control over such a jury rigged control link, with its limited bandwidth and cobbled-up target selection, was impossible, of course. But it was good enough to ensure that each of those missiles had been fed the emissions signatures of the battlecruisers it was supposed to attack. Accuracy might be poor, compared to a standard missile engagement, and the EW platforms and penetration aids were far less effective without proper shipboard updates, but the range was also incredibly short, which gave the defense no time to react.



Still an innovative combination of available hardware to make the dropped missile-pod trap more effective.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:49 pm

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Theemile wrote:Far better to do what Manticore is in the process of doing which is seeding the system with military grade, defended, stealthy (and I believe slightly mobile) Mycroft FTL fire control relays.

It's got a fusion reactor in it. It's not going to be very stealthy when you can see it from Jupiter with a FLIR camera.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:10 pm

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kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:Far better to do what Manticore is in the process of doing which is seeding the system with military grade, defended, stealthy (and I believe slightly mobile) Mycroft FTL fire control relays.

It's got a fusion reactor in it. It's not going to be very stealthy when you can see it from Jupiter with a FLIR camera.
Yes, yes, we all know that in the real world IR is the huge weakness in trying to be stealthy in space. But it just isn't in the Honorverse; so I'm sure these things will be plenty hard to see -- by authorial fiat (whether or not it's explained).
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