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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:09 pm

cthia
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This is the perfect time to post this. I watched a movie the other night. GEOSTORM. Its premise has a traitor in government hell-bent into killing the President and the entire cabinet and successors, with a powerful weapon—turned-global-weather-controller—sitting in space.

That's three authors to date that shares the same premise as this thread.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by n7axw   » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:14 pm

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cthia wrote:
Not consciously anyways. No, I'm not making that horrible mistake. It would be the same mistake governments across our globe make regarding religious conflict. "It is personal between A and B, and logic has no place in the face of personal religious animosity."

Again, it is what Honor had to bitchslap into Houseman. What I am proposing, is to remind us that in the Faithful's eyes, no one other than they are worthy. They abhor the Manticoran infidels as well, it is just not the same personal type hate born in blood.

On the heels of Theemile's interesting question, why not let the Faithful have Grayson and take the much better planet? Then respect the Faithful when they reject Allison's medical help with the high mortality of infant birth rates, along with prolong. Before long, Grayson would have both planets.

It would be a plan looking far enough into the future that it'd please the MAlign. :D


How many billion people are you planning to move to accomplish that? This question pretty effectively rules out planetary exchange, I would think.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

ldwechsler
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n7axw wrote:
cthia wrote:
Not consciously anyways. No, I'm not making that horrible mistake. It would be the same mistake governments across our globe make regarding religious conflict. "It is personal between A and B, and logic has no place in the face of personal religious animosity."

Again, it is what Honor had to bitchslap into Houseman. What I am proposing, is to remind us that in the Faithful's eyes, no one other than they are worthy. They abhor the Manticoran infidels as well, it is just not the same personal type hate born in blood.

On the heels of Theemile's interesting question, why not let the Faithful have Grayson and take the much better planet? Then respect the Faithful when they reject Allison's medical help with the high mortality of infant birth rates, along with prolong. Before long, Grayson would have both planets.

It would be a plan looking far enough into the future that it'd please the MAlign. :D


How many billion people are you planning to move to accomplish that? This question pretty effectively rules out planetary exchange, I would think.

Don

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The great American story-teller Will Rogers had a great line during World War I.

"I can stop submarine warfare. All we have to do is heat the ocean up to 212 degrees.

How do we do that? That's for lesser minds. I'm thinking the big picture."

That's what we have here.

It would be far simpler to destroy everything in orbit around Masada making taking off for other planets far more difficult and sending ships at irregular intervals to make certain nothing at all was in orbit.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:31 pm

cthia
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n7axw wrote:
cthia wrote:
Not consciously anyways. No, I'm not making that horrible mistake. It would be the same mistake governments across our globe make regarding religious conflict. "It is personal between A and B, and logic has no place in the face of personal religious animosity."

Again, it is what Honor had to bitchslap into Houseman. What I am proposing, is to remind us that in the Faithful's eyes, no one other than they are worthy. They abhor the Manticoran infidels as well, it is just not the same personal type hate born in blood.

On the heels of Theemile's interesting question, why not let the Faithful have Grayson and take the much better planet? Then respect the Faithful when they reject Allison's medical help with the high mortality of infant birth rates, along with prolong. Before long, Grayson would have both planets.

It would be a plan looking far enough into the future that it'd please the MAlign. :D


How many billion people are you planning to move to accomplish that? This question pretty effectively rules out planetary exchange, I would think.

Don

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I never claimed it would be easy. But given the alternative, it should be east to choose. Besides, any planet in the Honorverse would relocate in a heart beat if life on that planet was suddenly threatened. Say a behemoth of a planetary body heading right for it. Or a forewarning by the MAlign that your planet will be toast in months.

Use these carriers for exit. :D

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:51 pm

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cthia wrote:
That's pretty plain enough Eagleeye. And you didn't insult me. Sometimes another set of eyes is essential.

Your response reminds me of the joke that says if you place a dog a chicken and a cat in a cage, they'll learn to play together

Put a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim in a cage, and they won't survive the first night.

But all that is a moot point. I'm asking why GSN forces can't occupy the system. The troops will only be needed when they go down in armor, kicking ass anyway. It is the impetus behind the notion that Grayson would never bombard Masada from space. Albeit, the same objection could apply to the GSN occupying the orbitals.

IOW, all Grayson really needs from Manticore to assist with Masada is a ground-side occupying force. Not the RMN.

They weren't the initial occupying navy because after the ambush and then the battle of Blackbird they barely had a navy left.

Then it seemed like a good idea to use forces that Masadan's were convinced where evil heretics; simply godless apostates :D.

By now Grayson certainly has plenty of naval force to hold the system, and it seems that they do (or at least did) contribute to the naval detachment there. However the Masadan naval detachment is pretty small - the major forces are the ground troops and the orbital platforms providing them fire support.

In Flag in Exile, when Honor uses the Manticore's Gift class SDs to defend Grayson against the Peeps Theisman's force was always planned to be detached to seize the Endicott system - but even before Honor knows that she worries that the Peeps could send forces there because "The heaviest RMN or GSN ship covering Masada was a battlecruiser, and there were only eighteen of them."

So even that early on the GSN contributed forces but nobody needed to provide many forces to secure the fairly worthless system. What advanatage did you see for the GSN to fully take over that limited naval defense?

Theemile wrote:My inner argument on the Masada argument: do you, as Manticore, withhold prolong from Masada, allowing generations to quickly come and go, and the old ways (and generations pushing them) die out sooner. Or, do you offer Prolong to the populace, knowing that by doing so, you are creating monsters cause by the young indoctrinated by the old guard, which you will have to deal with for 200 years or more, requiring centuries or millennia for generational prejudices and sentiments to die off.

Is it even considered humane to withhold Prolong? If you do - what will be the resentment from the people of Masada forced to live and die short lives without it.

For that matter, will the Church even allow such evil drugs to be taken? In which case this argument is moot...

Based on Jane Lindskold's story Promised Land in the anthology The Service of the Sword it appears that prolong was made available to Masada since it says that they didn't use it because "the Faithful had decided that the use of prolong was an abomination against God".
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:16 am

cthia
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Posts: 9557
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:
That's pretty plain enough Eagleeye. And you didn't insult me. Sometimes another set of eyes is essential.

Your response reminds me of the joke that says if you place a dog a chicken and a cat in a cage, they'll learn to play together

Put a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim in a cage, and they won't survive the first night.

But all that is a moot point. I'm asking why GSN forces can't occupy the system. The troops will only be needed when they go down in armor, kicking ass anyway. It is the impetus behind the notion that Grayson would never bombard Masada from space. Albeit, the same objection could apply to the GSN occupying the orbitals.

IOW, all Grayson really needs from Manticore to assist with Masada is a ground-side occupying force. Not the RMN.

They weren't the initial occupying navy because after the ambush and then the battle of Blackbird they barely had a navy left.

Then it seemed like a good idea to use forces that Masadan's were convinced where evil heretics; simply godless apostates :D.

By now Grayson certainly has plenty of naval force to hold the system, and it seems that they do (or at least did) contribute to the naval detachment there. However the Masadan naval detachment is pretty small - the major forces are the ground troops and the orbital platforms providing them fire support.

In Flag in Exile, when Honor uses the Manticore's Gift class SDs to defend Grayson against the Peeps Theisman's force was always planned to be detached to seize the Endicott system - but even before Honor knows that she worries that the Peeps could send forces there because "The heaviest RMN or GSN ship covering Masada was a battlecruiser, and there were only eighteen of them."

So even that early on the GSN contributed forces but nobody needed to provide many forces to secure the fairly worthless system. What advanatage did you see for the GSN to fully take over that limited naval defense?

Theemile wrote:My inner argument on the Masada argument: do you, as Manticore, withhold prolong from Masada, allowing generations to quickly come and go, and the old ways (and generations pushing them) die out sooner. Or, do you offer Prolong to the populace, knowing that by doing so, you are creating monsters cause by the young indoctrinated by the old guard, which you will have to deal with for 200 years or more, requiring centuries or millennia for generational prejudices and sentiments to die off.

Is it even considered humane to withhold Prolong? If you do - what will be the resentment from the people of Masada forced to live and die short lives without it.

For that matter, will the Church even allow such evil drugs to be taken? In which case this argument is moot...

Based on Jane Lindskold's story Promised Land in the anthology The Service of the Sword it appears that prolong was made available to Masada since it says that they didn't use it because "the Faithful had decided that the use of prolong was an abomination against God".
Do pardon my bold to call attention.

Simply a matter of principle. Grayson sort of looks incapable of handling its own business.

Masada's rejection of prolong on religious grounds is intuitive. That one was visible a sector away.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:25 am

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Perhaps the elders will give some of the more fanatical faithful absolution to undergo the prolong treatments and ensure a fifth column (for want of a better description) going forward.
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T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:38 am

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cthia wrote:
Simply a matter of principle. Grayson sort of looks incapable of handling its own business.


No, having lived through The Troubles in the UK (mainly took place in Northern Ireland), I can see exactly why Grayson would decide that it was best if their ally Manticore took the Manticore's share of the Occupation forces. Manticore has, after all, taken part in battles against Masada, so isn't a pure outsider. On the other hand, its support is recent enough that the Masadans don't have that visceral hatred that they would for a Grayson force.

Problem in the Troubles was that one side loathed the British Army and the other side loathed the Irish Army - and calling in a neutral force would indeed have looked like either government was 'incapable of handling its own business.'

In the end, the equivalent of Manticore was Clinton, using his 'Irish diaspora' credentials to come in and break the deadlock.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Rincewind   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:40 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
The great American story-teller Will Rogers had a great line during World War I.

"I can stop submarine warfare. All we have to do is heat the ocean up to 212 degrees.

How do we do that? That's for lesser minds. I'm thinking the big picture."

That's what we have here.

It would be far simpler to destroy everything in orbit around Masada making taking off for other planets far more difficult and sending ships at irregular intervals to make certain nothing at all was in orbit.


Yeah, and in doing so he would only exterminate all life on Earth whilst he's at it.

That's the trouble with big thinkers. They get so caught up in their own grand vision that they ignore those tiny details THAT REALLY MATTER!
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:43 am

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Rincewind wrote:Yeah, and in doing so he would only exterminate all life on Earth whilst he's at it.

That's the trouble with big thinkers. They get so caught up in their own grand vision that they ignore those tiny details THAT REALLY MATTER!


You do know that Will Rogers was a "humorist" -- what today is called a "stand-up comedian"?
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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