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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by n7axw   » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:48 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:At this point is it actualy quite possible that Grayson could find themselves a habitable world and move their entire population there (over quite a few decades or more) while continuing to mine Grayson for some of the more exotic materials found there. That, apparently, isn't quite the way the Graysons view the problems they face. The probably would have been much better off leaving the Faithfull on Grayson (and giving them what they wanted- control of the planet) and going to what is now Massada where they could have thrived more or less. Certainly that planet & system would probably have become the prize that Haven and Manticore were looking to gain in Honor of the Queen- same scenario, slightly different location. Somehow I don't see the Faithfull doing quite as well on Grayson without the people who ultimately gave away their oppertunity to get off that ball of toxin.


At that time Grayson had no way of getting the bulk of the population. It is unclear that they even managed to get the bulk of the faithful off planet. IIRC, what they managed was about 50,000 people which probably included the leadership and the inner circle of the faithful in exchange for not having the planet blown up by nukes.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:42 am

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You're forgetting that their decisions are rooted in their religion. To abandon the planet that Tester chose for them would be blasphemous. Their goal is to past the doctrine of their test.

Somehow I doubt that passing their test would include abandoning their nest. Leaving the planet and system might possibly result in the destruction of the Church of Humanity Unchained.

Heck, I imagine that simply suggesting such a thing would cause an irrevocable constitutional crisis. The Protector would be putting down Maccabeus-like uprisings all over the planet.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:44 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:At this point is it actualy quite possible that Grayson could find themselves a habitable world and move their entire population there (over quite a few decades or more) while continuing to mine Grayson for some of the more exotic materials found there.
Or they could not repeat the mistake they made the first time around and simply not fall back down to a planetary gravity well. Seriously, how do people in Honorverse keep screwing that up!? And these gravity wells are light years away from Earth? I mean I could understand if you shot off and screwed up some calculations and got caught in Jupiter or crashed into Luna, but Beowulf? Come on! Its in Sigma Draconis! Why?!?!? :P

But seriously the Grayson's have a fine set up now. They can build nice airtight domes and stuff. You'd need to do basically the same thing anyplace else unless you wanted to deal with deadly UV rays, new diseases, insects, water damage or the other horrifying dangers of planetary life.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:22 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:At this point is it actualy quite possible that Grayson could find themselves a habitable world and move their entire population there (over quite a few decades or more) while continuing to mine Grayson for some of the more exotic materials found there.
Or they could not repeat the mistake they made the first time around and simply not fall back down to a planetary gravity well. Seriously, how do people in Honorverse keep screwing that up!? And these gravity wells are light years away from Earth? I mean I could understand if you shot off and screwed up some calculations and got caught in Jupiter or crashed into Luna, but Beowulf? Come on! Its in Sigma Draconis! Why?!?!? :P

But seriously the Grayson's have a fine set up now. They can build nice airtight domes and stuff. You'd need to do basically the same thing anyplace else unless you wanted to deal with deadly UV rays, new diseases, insects, water damage or the other horrifying dangers of planetary life.


Right. Remember that Honor facilitated the building of less expensive stronger domes. It is far easier to build a dome than to move a large population to another planet.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:17 am

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n7axw wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:At this point is it actualy quite possible that Grayson could find themselves a habitable world and move their entire population there (over quite a few decades or more) while continuing to mine Grayson for some of the more exotic materials found there. That, apparently, isn't quite the way the Graysons view the problems they face. The probably would have been much better off leaving the Faithfull on Grayson (and giving them what they wanted- control of the planet) and going to what is now Massada where they could have thrived more or less. Certainly that planet & system would probably have become the prize that Haven and Manticore were looking to gain in Honor of the Queen- same scenario, slightly different location. Somehow I don't see the Faithfull doing quite as well on Grayson without the people who ultimately gave away their oppertunity to get off that ball of toxin.


At that time Grayson had no way of getting the bulk of the population. It is unclear that they even managed to get the bulk of the faithful off planet. IIRC, what they managed was about 50,000 people which probably included the leadership and the inner circle of the faithful in exchange for not having the planet blown up by nukes.

Don

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* "Bessed art thou."


At this point, Grayson can always opt for Masada and give up Grayson. They can decide that Tester wants them to have Masada or he wouldn't have "blessed" them with the Alliance.* The option will always be open to them, since their Allies control the system.

Why don't the GSN occupy Masada, instead of the RMN? Available troop strength?

I'm positing that Grayson would never accept a KEW strike against Masada. In the manner the SLN CO so easily resorted to such tactics to put down a "terrorist" uprising.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Eagleeye   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:09 am

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cthia wrote:


Why don't the GSN occupy Masada, instead of the RMN? Available troop strength?



Grayson troops as an occupying force on Masada?? Sorry, it's definitely not my intention to insult you, cthia ... but I have to ask: ARE YOU MAD???

If you let Graysons even near Masada, the whole planet will go booom! Scratch that, I mean, it will go BOOOMMMM!!!. You simply can't ignore several hundred years of really bad blood and mutual hatred. The Graysons, as the victors, tend maybe to a more sane approach in regard of Masada and Masadans, but the other way around? No way in hell. A hundred years down the road, as soon as the whole lot of the old fanatics are dead and a new generation, raised under and used to Manticoran occupation and order, is available, then, maybe, you can substitute (over several decades) the Manticoran occupying forces with Graysons. Sooner - and you've a box seat, 1st row, for the real life explosion of a whole planet.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:39 am

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Eagleeye wrote:
cthia wrote:


Why don't the GSN occupy Masada, instead of the RMN? Available troop strength?



Grayson troops as an occupying force on Masada?? Sorry, it's definitely not my intention to insult you, cthia ... but I have to ask: ARE YOU MAD???

If you let Graysons even near Masada, the whole planet will go booom! Scratch that, I mean, it will go BOOOMMMM!!!. You simply can't ignore several hundred years of really bad blood and mutual hatred. The Graysons, as the victors, tend maybe to a more sane approach in regard of Masada and Masadans, but the other way around? No way in hell. A hundred years down the road, as soon as the whole lot of the old fanatics are dead and a new generation, raised under and used to Manticoran occupation and order, is available, then, maybe, you can substitute (over several decades) the Manticoran occupying forces with Graysons. Sooner - and you've a box seat, 1st row, for the real life explosion of a whole planet.


:lol: :D 8-)

That's pretty plain enough Eagleeye. And you didn't insult me. Sometimes another set of eyes is essential.

Your response reminds me of the joke that says if you place a dog a chicken and a cat in a cage, they'll learn to play together

Put a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim in a cage, and they won't survive the first night.

But all that is a moot point. I'm asking why GSN forces can't occupy the system. The troops will only be needed when they go down in armor, kicking ass anyway. It is the impetus behind the notion that Grayson would never bombard Masada from space. Albeit, the same objection could apply to the GSN occupying the orbitals.

IOW, all Grayson really needs from Manticore to assist with Masada is a ground-side occupying force. Not the RMN.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Theemile   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:30 pm

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cthia wrote:
Eagleeye wrote:
Grayson troops as an occupying force on Masada?? Sorry, it's definitely not my intention to insult you, cthia ... but I have to ask: ARE YOU MAD???

If you let Graysons even near Masada, the whole planet will go booom! Scratch that, I mean, it will go BOOOMMMM!!!. You simply can't ignore several hundred years of really bad blood and mutual hatred. The Graysons, as the victors, tend maybe to a more sane approach in regard of Masada and Masadans, but the other way around? No way in hell. A hundred years down the road, as soon as the whole lot of the old fanatics are dead and a new generation, raised under and used to Manticoran occupation and order, is available, then, maybe, you can substitute (over several decades) the Manticoran occupying forces with Graysons. Sooner - and you've a box seat, 1st row, for the real life explosion of a whole planet.


:lol: :D 8-)

That's pretty plain enough Eagleeye. And you didn't insult me. Sometimes another set of eyes is essential.

Your response reminds me of the joke that says if you place a dog a chicken and a cat in a cage, they'll learn to play together

Put a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim in a cage, and they won't survive the first night.

But all that is a moot point. I'm asking why GSN forces can't occupy the system. The troops will only be needed when they go down in armor, kicking ass anyway. It is the impetus behind the notion that Grayson would never bombard Masada from space. Albeit, the same objection could apply to the GSN occupying the orbitals.

IOW, all Grayson really needs from Manticore to assist with Masada is a ground-side occupying force. Not the RMN.



My inner argument on the Masada argument: do you, as Manticore, withhold prolong from Masada, allowing generations to quickly come and go, and the old ways (and generations pushing them) die out sooner. Or, do you offer Prolong to the populace, knowing that by doing so, you are creating monsters cause by the young indoctrinated by the old guard, which you will have to deal with for 200 years or more, requiring centuries or millennia for generational prejudices and sentiments to die off.

Is it even considered humane to withhold Prolong? If you do - what will be the resentment from the people of Masada forced to live and die short lives without it.

For that matter, will the Church even allow such evil drugs to be taken? In which case this argument is moot...
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Eagleeye   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:01 pm

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Theemile wrote:My inner argument on the Masada argument: do you, as Manticore, withhold prolong from Masada, allowing generations to quickly come and go, and the old ways (and generations pushing them) die out sooner. Or, do you offer Prolong to the populace, knowing that by doing so, you are creating monsters cause by the young indoctrinated by the old guard, which you will have to deal with for 200 years or more, requiring centuries or millennia for generational prejudices and sentiments to die off.

Is it even considered humane to withhold Prolong? If you do - what will be the resentment from the people of Masada forced to live and die short lives without it.

For that matter, will the Church even allow such evil drugs to be taken? In which case this argument is moot...


One good thing about the ProLong-Therapies: They are only available to young people (younger than 30, if memory serves). And young people are far more malleable and more open to new ideas. Btw, I doubt that Manticore offered ProLong for the whole population as soon as it occupied Masada. If they offered it at all, so only to the families of the ones who were ready (ready as in "kicking and screaming all the way, but at least able to acknowlege necessity if it bites one into the face") to work with Manticore.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:35 pm

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cthia wrote:Why don't the GSN occupy Masada, instead of the RMN? Available troop strength?


That argument -- or one very similar that ignored the religious fanaticism of the Faithful -- is ultimately what got Reginald Houseman "chastised" by Honor.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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