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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 pm

cthia
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ldwechsler wrote:
cthia wrote:Paradigm shift in the Manticore Binary System?


You are looking at an oscillator found here ...

Image

It reminds me of the SEM—Manticore, Sphinx and Gryphon. Think of the center square as representing Manticore, situated at the MWJ. As each period passes by, the Manticore system is stable, but Sphinx and Gryphon changes (as is the spoils of war).

"Gall-lee Sarge," Conway's Game of Life suggests, as well as predicts, many results, as well as supporting still others. And it guarantees that it will inspire much much more.

One other thing that the Game of Life suggests, even predicts, is a possible death, or the inevitable coalescing of certain systems in the Honorverse.

Hearken back to the premise of this thread. The Malign has orchestrated the most successful EEV strike in history against Manticore, and has left it politically devastated. Would the dominant local system government of the Manticore Binary system become Sphinx or Gryphon? Should it?

After all, the government that is left on Manticore is being run by Aldermen, City Council members and dog catchers.

Does this tragedy not make Manticore a weaker local government?


Several facts are just wrong. Manticore was not politically devastated. The government continued. Also, all three planets were hit. Why should Sphynx, for example, become dominant?

The top leaders were still in place. Yes, a lot of people died. But the government continued. And sometime thereafter made a major alliance with its old enemy Haven and the two nations shattered a major Sollie fleet.


I apologize for not making the notion clear. I am referring to "the premise of this thread" where the entire line of successors, all royal blood, is simply gone -- along with many key figures caught up in the CSAPPS envelope. And the government is being run by the aforementions.

Realistically, Sphinx and Gryphon would have a much stronger local government in the aftermath of such a slate wiping strike. Indeed, they'd have an intact local government. Manticore would have to concentrate on bootstrapping itself for some time to come. No?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:18 pm

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Welcome to FanFic only not so much.

Gryphon was probably hit by station debris but I don't recall any discussion of catastrophic impact or death toll, certainly not near the magnitude of the impacts at Yawetta or on Black Rock Clan.

If- and its a very large if, the Aligment had elected to go for KEW strikes against Landing (at least) on Manticore and the planitary capitals and administrative centers on both Sphinx and Gryphon, then there would be major holes in the Government and certainly the Succession.

The RMN, particularly the reconstituted Home Fleet as deployed in the binary system was also intact and, at worst, Martial Law would have gone into effect to deal with the damage and recovery on the planets. Honor was off at Haven so there is another fully modern fleet available. It is unlikely that the Royal Governors at Basilisk, Silesia and Talbott are going to suddenly decide to make theselves local rulers in their own right, both because who those people are and that they have the RMN available to sit on a number of problems that could crop up. San Martin also isn't likely to go tearing off on it's own

There is, however, still Michelle (Mike) out there commading the 10th Fleet and she is 5th In-line of Succession. A VERY clear person to take the reins of government.
Just how many of the House of Lords and the Commons would have been killed is something that would have to be spun up by RFC since, unless they were in session or mostly in-town at Landing when the strike hit, they may have been dispursed across the planets.

Doing EE attacksThat would have created more than a small problem for the Alignment. It was clearly laid out in the run-up to Oyster Bay that this was very specifically organized to NOT be an EE violation and the (anticipated) fall of debris on the three plantets were "only" collateral damage of destruction of the stations, not deliberatly engineered to happen. I believe the reasoning for that it that while the attacks on the Manticore and Grayson could not be attributed to any Star Nation, they did NOT reach to the level that would have essentialy required the SL to show up and do something about it- as in attempt to enforce the EE law.
Certainly the SLN and the Mandarins (amoung others ) saw this devastating event as an advantage to the SL and would make their Raging Justice attack "easier", they somehow seem to shrug off the enormity of that some unknown entity just devastated the orbital infrastruture of both the Manticore Binary and Grayson systems with a combination of some new (and almost invisible) weapons systems and a crapload of ballistic delivered weapons.
How (other than being blind, deaf and stupid) could the SLN not figure out that somebody with a lot better technology than they had just hammered two major industrialzed systems that had the probably 2nd largest combined Navy known to Humanity and do it from invisable ships with weapons that couldn't be detected till they either fired or were too close to be intercepted by any of the stations or local warships sensors because they were comming in ballisticaly as stealthed objects?
Even the SL would have to take notice and make at least an effort to find and punish "somebody" that did major (up to catastrophic level) KEW strikes on FOUR (because if they are going to hit all three at Manticore there is little reason not to do the same to Grayson to compleat tearing the roots out of that those navies and industrial powerhouses) inhabited planets in two systems at the same time without any warning to the most sophistocated defensive system sensor nets known. Even if the SL doen't believe the vast superiority of the RMN/GSN/RHN, they have to wonder who acutaly would want to or be able to carry that whole thing off----and when it was going to get around the the SL.

So you have Mike, Honor, and several other major players who are all legitimate in the places they would hold or move into by succession and who are known and ususally engaged with Maticore's allies and major trading partners. A still very large and powerful RMN plus GSN and- probably Haven is going to still come in on the support of Manticore plus you have the relationship with Beowulf.
It would be brutal but still likely doable particularly since Haven would be just as worried about the Alignment AND -since they are passed the intelegence on the Raging Justice adventre- not likely to want SL to grab the Junction with Haven as the next likely target.

Just my 2 centi-credits.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:04 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Welcome to FanFic only not so much.

Gryphon was probably hit by station debris but I don't recall any discussion of catastrophic impact or death toll, certainly not near the magnitude of the impacts at Yawetta or on Black Rock Clan.

If- and its a very large if, the Aligment had elected to go for KEW strikes against Landing (at least) on Manticore and the planitary capitals and administrative centers on both Sphinx and Gryphon, then there would be major holes in the Government and certainly the Succession.

The RMN, particularly the reconstituted Home Fleet as deployed in the binary system was also intact and, at worst, Martial Law would have gone into effect to deal with the damage and recovery on the planets. Honor was off at Haven so there is another fully modern fleet available. It is unlikely that the Royal Governors at Basilisk, Silesia and Talbott are going to suddenly decide to make theselves local rulers in their own right, both because who those people are and that they have the RMN available to sit on a number of problems that could crop up. San Martin also isn't likely to go tearing off on it's own

There is, however, still Michelle (Mike) out there commading the 10th Fleet and she is 5th In-line of Succession. A VERY clear person to take the reins of government.
Just how many of the House of Lords and the Commons would have been killed is something that would have to be spun up by RFC since, unless they were in session or mostly in-town at Landing when the strike hit, they may have been dispursed across the planets.

Doing EE attacksThat would have created more than a small problem for the Alignment. It was clearly laid out in the run-up to Oyster Bay that this was very specifically organized to NOT be an EE violation and the (anticipated) fall of debris on the three plantets were "only" collateral damage of destruction of the stations, not deliberatly engineered to happen. I believe the reasoning for that it that while the attacks on the Manticore and Grayson could not be attributed to any Star Nation, they did NOT reach to the level that would have essentialy required the SL to show up and do something about it- as in attempt to enforce the EE law.
Certainly the SLN and the Mandarins (amoung others ) saw this devastating event as an advantage to the SL and would make their Raging Justice attack "easier", they somehow seem to shrug off the enormity of that some unknown entity just devastated the orbital infrastruture of both the Manticore Binary and Grayson systems with a combination of some new (and almost invisible) weapons systems and a crapload of ballistic delivered weapons.
How (other than being blind, deaf and stupid) could the SLN not figure out that somebody with a lot better technology than they had just hammered two major industrialzed systems that had the probably 2nd largest combined Navy known to Humanity and do it from invisable ships with weapons that couldn't be detected till they either fired or were too close to be intercepted by any of the stations or local warships sensors because they were comming in ballisticaly as stealthed objects?
Even the SL would have to take notice and make at least an effort to find and punish "somebody" that did major (up to catastrophic level) KEW strikes on FOUR (because if they are going to hit all three at Manticore there is little reason not to do the same to Grayson to compleat tearing the roots out of that those navies and industrial powerhouses) inhabited planets in two systems at the same time without any warning to the most sophistocated defensive system sensor nets known. Even if the SL doen't believe the vast superiority of the RMN/GSN/RHN, they have to wonder who acutaly would want to or be able to carry that whole thing off----and when it was going to get around the the SL.

So you have Mike, Honor, and several other major players who are all legitimate in the places they would hold or move into by succession and who are known and ususally engaged with Maticore's allies and major trading partners. A still very large and powerful RMN plus GSN and- probably Haven is going to still come in on the support of Manticore plus you have the relationship with Beowulf.
It would be brutal but still likely doable particularly since Haven would be just as worried about the Alignment AND -since they are passed the intelegence on the Raging Justice adventre- not likely to want SL to grab the Junction with Haven as the next likely target.

Just my 2 centi-credits.


You might note that they were NOT interested. Rajani came into the room where the mandarins were meeting very happily but had no idea who had done the job.

They were deliberately steered away from checking. Rajani, working for MAlign, had been in charge of the navy since before the start of the current hostilities. And there were others.

The people killed were concentrated mostly on satellites and ships attached...key workers and military people. Exactly the kind of people who would be missed.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:39 am

cthia
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I'm still curious what would happen if Manticore was violated with devastating EE strikes that plunged the planet into a nuclear winter. Would the system's planetary seat of government become Sphinx or Gryphon?

Let's say Beth lives.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:54 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm still curious what would happen if Manticore was violated with devastating EE strikes that plunged the planet into a nuclear winter. Would the system's planetary seat of government become Sphinx or Gryphon?

Let's say Beth lives.


That would probably be the best optoion- The Queen and the Government remaining in the Manticore Home System.
Almost anything elce opens out all sorts of problems no matter where she would go. San Martin is the "closest" non-Home System and longest actualy in the Empire but it isn't in the Home System.
There is essentialy a military logistics base at Gregor (don't recall much about anything on a habitalbel planet. Minimal info on the terminus at Matapan. Basilisk is, well, a Protectorate, and a vastly politicaly charged question that could then blow up with the old North Hollow group working against things. Not a place you want the Queen and Government.
Beowulf clearly would be a military and political problem- they are an allied partner system not part of the Empire.
Hennessy- same challange as Matapan, and more likely same arrangement as Beowulf with joint operations of the terminus but the system isn't Manticorian territory.
The Talbott systems in the Empire are WAY too new and, again, there is massive politican and especialy military problems that are swirling around.
So Beth goes to either Sphinx or Gryphon along with much of the surviving government and rule and goverence continues from THE MANTICORE SYSTEM for the Empire. It is, of course also the system next to the Junction which keeps it at the center of communications and least time from the several concentrations of RMN which are part of the essentilay station garrisons of the other termini.
She DOES NOT ABANDON THE HOME SYSTEM. Whatever could have happend to cause the strike on Manticore, it would also still be the best protected system they have as well as holding the threads to the engine that drives Manticore economy and the place they have to defend and maintain at any cost.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:09 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm still curious what would happen if Manticore was violated with devastating EE strikes that plunged the planet into a nuclear winter. Would the system's planetary seat of government become Sphinx or Gryphon?

Let's say Beth lives.


Neither. They bring Skydomes of Grayson in to build domes on Manticore.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:31 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:There is essentialy a military logistics base at Gregor (don't recall much about anything on a habitability planet.

Gregor was an independent star nation very early in the series but was run by the AE later in the series. I don't think how that happened has been explained, but it is apparently an industrialized system.

"I understand your point, Allen," Honor said, "but it shouldn't be a problem. The Empire recognized our preexisting treaty with the Gregor Republic when it, ah, acquired Gregor-B forty years ago."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:26 pm

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kzt wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:There is essentialy a military logistics base at Gregor (don't recall much about anything on a habitability planet.

Gregor was an independent star nation very early in the series but was run by the AE later in the series. I don't think how that happened has been explained, but it is apparently an industrialized system.

"I understand your point, Allen," Honor said, "but it shouldn't be a problem. The Empire recognized our preexisting treaty with the Gregor Republic when it, ah, acquired Gregor-B forty years ago."


I believe Gregor A, where the wormhole is at, was being used to work up Andy ships in the 2nd war.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:57 am

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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm still curious what would happen if Manticore was violated with devastating EE strikes that plunged the planet into a nuclear winter. Would the system's planetary seat of government become Sphinx or Gryphon?

Let's say Beth lives.


Neither. They bring Skydomes of Grayson in to build domes on Manticore.


1) The damage would be done before domes could be built.

2) There's no reason for domes anyway. After an impact winter the problem is the sky is black, not that the atmosphere is hazardous.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:27 am

cthia
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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm still curious what would happen if Manticore was violated with devastating EE strikes that plunged the planet into a nuclear winter. Would the system's planetary seat of government become Sphinx or Gryphon?

Let's say Beth lives.


Neither. They bring Skydomes of Grayson in to build domes on Manticore.
Loren Pechtel wrote:1) The damage would be done before domes could be built.

2) There's no reason for domes anyway. After an impact winter the problem is the sky is black, not that the atmosphere is hazardous.


Indeed. The atmosphere, though not exactly immediately dangerous because of its toxicity, as is Grayson, probably wouldn't be the model of healthy either. The black rain will cause all sorts of planetary problems and hazards. People might choose to relocate to get away from the freezing temperatures. For that reason alone, Sphinx most likely would receive the lion's share of the population, and Hexapumas would be well fed.

At any rate, the average Manticoran simply can't handle the Gryphon winters. And even if counter-grav would help alleviate the heavy environment, I'd imagine employment would be questionable on Gryphon for the most part. And you'd have to consider whether Manticoran citizens that may choose to leave the system altogether would continue to be subject to Manticoran taxes since they'd be out of the system for extended periods and most likely paying taxes in another system. A notion that would surely hurt the Manticoran economy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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