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Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...

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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:01 pm

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Interesting topic. First off, the ground rules strongly suggest such strikes could not happen. The key words here are could not.

Logic might suggest that the House of Winston would take precautions against all the family being wiped out. Sound judgment indeed.

Deep secure bolt holes? Gravity chutes for quick drops? Lead time only half a minute? Some family would survive. Short and long term.

I wonder if we might see something of this in the coming book? Perhaps on a regional or local scale? One planet perhaps? Yikes!
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:35 pm

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Potato wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:May I point out the standard tactic of the designated survivor? You always make sure that somebody in the line of succession is far away from any such event.

(Yes, there is a TV show on with this as a name. The show is named after the concept, I'm not basing this on the show. In fact, the show got it wrong--he shouldn't have been in Washington, period.)


I think that is the nub with all the objections. For example, Mike Henke is hundreds of light years away, and no prospect of immediate return to the Home System. So already, this scenario is on shaky ground.

Even supposing she is in system, there are simply too many branches of the government and dynasty that would be elsewhere at any given time. The grand dukes, MPs and Lords, and various branches of the Winton Dynasty would be scattered everywhere. And that is just political figures. Such an attack would also have to eliminate the military chain of command if it tried to restore order. To completely destroy all centers authority like what cthia is proposing would require unleashing so much firepower at so many targets that the Home System would be eliminated.

No.

Even Anisimovna isn't that good. She was simply going for the full decapitation of the current government and those in line for succession that were currently present and locally centered around Mount Royal Palace. The strike was very contained. Did you not think the MAlign would, could and did have the foresight to develop appropriate weapons to complement their unbridled vision and technology? The MAlign can execute clean planetary strikes. They don't have to willy nilly throw ordinance. They can set up house in a hole in space with Eridani strike computers calculating exactly when and how to launch a contained strike. Mount Royal and everyone "visiting" simply gone.

They didn't know that the lottery would just be handed to them without asking. They're probably just as astounded at the idiocy of the Manticorans placing all of their eggs and chickens in one basket. But, there were wires crossed, extenuating circumstances, eliminating circumstances and the dreaded human element that struck with the full force of a Murphyian blow, pure blind rotten luck and that birth called an Anisimovna.

"You always take precautions against this type of thing by at least separating the eggs and the chickens."

I'm certain as well. I'll buy some of that stock. But apparently, the dreaded human element strikes in waves.

One thing is for certain. When news of the measure of their success reached them...

https://youtu.be/8mxYHYXoCPs

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by munroburton   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:48 pm

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It's not that far out. Indeed, one doesn't need to resort to an Eridani Edict violation to accomplish such goals.

See how the Harris government ended.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Potato   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:20 pm

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cthia wrote:No.

Even Anisimovna isn't that good. She was simply going for the full decapitation of the current government and those in line for succession that were currently present and locally centered around Mount Royal Palace. The strike was very contained. Did you not think the MAlign would, could and did have the foresight to develop appropriate weapons to complement their unbridled vision and technology? The MAlign can execute clean planetary strikes. They don't have to willy nilly throw ordinance. They can set up house in a hole in space with Eridani strike computers calculating exactly when and how to launch a contained strike. Mount Royal and everyone "visiting" simply gone.

They didn't know that the lottery would just be handed to them without asking. They're probably just as astounded at the idiocy of the Manticorans placing all of their eggs and chickens in one basket. But, there were wires crossed, extenuating circumstances, eliminating circumstances and the dreaded human element that struck with the full force of a Murphyian blow, pure blind rotten luck and that birth called an Anisimovna.

"You always take precautions against this type of thing by at least separating the eggs and the chickens."

I'm certain as well. I'll buy some of that stock. But apparently, the dreaded human element strikes in waves.

One thing is for certain. When news of the measure of their success reached them...

https://youtu.be/8mxYHYXoCPs


You are the one who said this was an Eridani Edict violation. You are the one who claims this has killed everyone in government, which by necessity requires killing people who are either:

1. separated by considerable distances and protected by many layers of security, due to continuity of government contingency planning; or

2. who are so distantly related to the not only the Winton line, but every noble (since you claimed you're also killing the Lords) and every MP;

Such that no one other than Honor survives, all so she can take over. That is not a surgical strike - it is the complete antithesis.

Do you have any conception of how many people that is? Think about the difficulty in tracking down not just the President, Vice President, every member of the Cabinet, all the members of Congress, the justices of the Supreme Court, the governors of all 50 states, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But no, it's not just them. You said you're killing everyone related to them. So now you have to hunt down all their family members and distant relatives. And you are doing this with an Edict violation? The only way to guarantee that would be a saturation bombardment of the United States, the consequence of which would be the United States ceasing to exist.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by kzt   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:23 pm

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munroburton wrote:It's not that far out. Indeed, one doesn't need to resort to an Eridani Edict violation to accomplish such goals.

See how the Harris government ended.

You need insiders. Otherwise the undersecretary of defense who was unavoidably delayed or the Flag officer who was the watch officer in the extremely hardened fleet command center are now in charge.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Potato   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:28 pm

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munroburton wrote:It's not that far out. Indeed, one doesn't need to resort to an Eridani Edict violation to accomplish such goals.

See how the Harris government ended.


The distinction here is that cthia is proposing to kill everyone who could possibly supersede Honor or organize a provisional government. Pierre simply killed the Legislaturists. He still had full access and use of all the bureaucracies and their records, plus the full support of the Senate. In essence, Pierre simply bombed the White House; cthia is bombing the entire continent. And even in the aftermath of the attack, Pierre still had to spend a couple years hunting down loyalists - his control of the People's Republic was far from assured.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by phillies   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:35 pm

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Of somewhat more serious nature, in addition to blowing up the Queens, dukes, Electors, Counts, Barons, Daimyos, etc etc, the feudal bits and pieces, you might consider that there is also a real government that would continue to govern 'in the absence of the monarch, until such time as she is found'. For example, the space traffic controllers at the warp points are not directly affected.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by Maldorian   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:54 pm

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Michelle Henke isn´t the only noble in the Service of the navy, so you can bet, that enoughnoble will survive to find a new King/Queen.
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:44 pm

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Potato wrote:
cthia wrote:No.

Even Anisimovna isn't that good. She was simply going for the full decapitation of the current government and those in line for succession that were currently present and locally centered around Mount Royal Palace. The strike was very contained. Did you not think the MAlign would, could and did have the foresight to develop appropriate weapons to complement their unbridled vision and technology? The MAlign can execute clean planetary strikes. They don't have to willy nilly throw ordnance. They can set up house in a hole in space with Eridani strike computers calculating exactly when and how to launch a contained strike. Mount Royal and everyone "visiting" simply gone.

They didn't know that the lottery would just be handed to them without asking. They're probably just as astounded at the idiocy of the Manticorans placing all of their eggs and chickens in one basket. But, there were wires crossed, extenuating circumstances, eliminating circumstances and the dreaded human element that struck with the full force of a Murphyian blow, pure blind rotten luck and that birth called an Anisimovna.

"You always take precautions against this type of thing by at least separating the eggs and the chickens."

I'm certain as well. I'll buy some of that stock. But apparently, the dreaded human element strikes in waves.

One thing is for certain. When news of the measure of their success reached them...

https://youtu.be/8mxYHYXoCPs


You are the one who said this was an Eridani Edict violation. You are the one who claims this has killed everyone in government, which by necessity requires killing people who are either:

1. separated by considerable distances and protected by many layers of security, due to continuity of government contingency planning; or

2. who are so distantly related to the not only the Winton line, but every noble (since you claimed you're also killing the Lords) and every MP;

Such that no one other than Honor survives, all so she can take over. That is not a surgical strike - it is the complete antithesis.

Do you have any conception of how many people that is? Think about the difficulty in tracking down not just the President, Vice President, every member of the Cabinet, all the members of Congress, the justices of the Supreme Court, the governors of all 50 states, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But no, it's not just them. You said you're killing everyone related to them. So now you have to hunt down all their family members and distant relatives. And you are doing this with an Edict violation? The only way to guarantee that would be a saturation bombardment of the United States, the consequence of which would be the United States ceasing to exist.

And so it is. And so it did.

That is a lot of heavy lifting. That's for damn sure. But the MAlign are smart and savvy. They are Alphas. Anisimovna is simply the brightest of the Alpha line. Yet they are each individually brilliant enough in their own Reich (purely couldn't resist) to govern Mensa, let alone Mesa. They let the Manticorans and the situation do the heavy lifting for them. The MA work smart, not hard. An event held at Mount Royal Palace bought everyone in. Don't ask me what the event was. But isn't there always one very big family reunion? This year, it also mortally coincided with a particularly rare event, the human element did the rest and bought them all home. The human element, word of mouth and wanting to make the event. Excited even.

The problem is that many are failing to make the parallel connection between the logic of the same flavor of human element being responsible for this as was also responsible for placing all of the Apollo pods in one basket aboard Honor's ships during the Battle of Manticore. There was no one who would have thought that the Havenites would have rolled the dice that way.

Likewise, no one thought that the MAlign would roll the dice that way either. The Manticorans and the government and the line of succession, for all intents and purposes really were safe. An Eridani violation was the only way this particular scenario could have been taken advantage of in that manner. There was even extraordinary beefed up security that was historical and hysterical. There is no way that they were not considered safe. And the number of people that attended the event covered considerable ground.

"Again, for all intents and purposes, they were really safe."

Albeit I must admit, it's the same argument trotted out to me when I argued that the Mueller School Dome kids shouldn't have been admitted on an unfinished site.

I cannot seem to properly introduce the human element. And though we have no definitive genetic proof, we believe it and Murphy are related — by birth and by marriage and by unholy incest that is the MA; it is probably why such an insane thing happened in the first place.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind...
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:51 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:There is no way to do what you want and still leave Manticore a Star nation. Considering the level of technology and record keeping they have had since the formation of the Kingdom, they would be able to track down that accountant on Beowoulf who is Elizabeth's 14th cousin twice removed. (Ever seen King Ralph?)

Furthermore, considering that they have been at war, or preparing for war, for as long as they have been, they most likely fallow something similar to the "designated survivor" protocols that the US government fallows.

Assuming that Honor is the only survivor of every title of nobility, she could probably assert a claim of Queen, but the level of devastation required to get to that means that her subjects would be only a few thousand battered and dying people.
My bold to call attention.

I don't recall Detweiler requesting that that be a prerequisite, nor can I ever imagine — even in my wildest meanderings — that Detty'd even care.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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