How would you attack the SL

kzt wrote:Obviously it's time to declare an emergency. And since they will clearly need a lot of money to build ships, time to pass some laws of questionable legality...

There's that pesky, "everybody has a veto" qualifier to overcome. I think every effort by the Mandarins to circumvent that sticking point is going to inspire another secession or ten.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:Obviously it's time to declare an emergency. And since they will clearly need a lot of money to build ships, time to pass some laws of questionable legality...

There's that pesky, "everybody has a veto" qualifier to overcome. I think every effort by the Mandarins to circumvent that sticking point is going to inspire another secession or ten.

It passed by acclamation.

It's a modification to the constitution, which avoid the whole veto issue.

"So you say that isn't legal? Here's a form, fill it out and we'll get into the court calendar. I think the first opening is in 6 years. But in the meantime, I think this group of police wish to talk to you."

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:Obviously it's time to declare an emergency. And since they will clearly need a lot of money to build ships, time to pass some laws of questionable legality...

There's that pesky, "everybody has a veto" qualifier to overcome. I think every effort by the Mandarins to circumvent that sticking point is going to inspire another secession or ten.

It passed by acclamation.

kzt wrote:It's a modification to the constitution, which avoid the whole veto issue.

"So you say that isn't legal? Here's a form, fill it out and we'll get into the court calendar. I think the first opening is in 6 years. But in the meantime, I think this group of police wish to talk to you."

Except that a number of the core systems have SDF forces that would object, and the mandarins don't want to rattle that particular cage

fallsfromtrees wrote:Except that a number of the core systems have SDF forces that would object, and the mandarins don't want to rattle that particular cage

Umm, it IS an emergency. Everyone with a brain agrees it's an emergency. And going to war to destroy the SL because you want to save the SL is going to be kind of hard to explain. I can think of a 1 word description of their action that will be used. It starts with a T.

And don't worry, in 8 years the courts will rule that you never had standing to file a complaint.

Weird Harold wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:The point of going after the reserve is to keep them from using those ships to keep a grip on systems that want to leave--the fewer hulls in the SLN the more likely systems are to revolt. The ships are of course nothing more than targets to the GA.

There IS no point in going after the SLN Reserve:

....

The Reserve is just so many targets to the GA, but to the SLN assembly, it is a sunk cost that has to be brought back into service as quickly as possible. If the GA destroys the Reserve, they remove that public clamor to re-activate it and allow the Mandarins and the SLN to hide just how outclassed they are.

To the GA, the reserve is nothing but targets. To the SLN the reserve is something to use to hold onto Verge systems. Eliminating as many SLN hulls as possible makes it that much harder for them to hold things together.

Loren Pechtel wrote:To the GA, the reserve is nothing but targets. To the SLN the reserve is something to use to hold onto Verge systems. Eliminating as many SLN hulls as possible makes it that much harder for them to hold things together.

If the SLN sends the reserve out to attack Verge systems which are trying to exist from League control, then it becomes fair game. Manticoran strategy is likely going to be Michelle Henke writ large: knock off sector control, eliminate OFS officials and presence, restore independence and try to keep a lid on whatever happens next.

But the reserve while it's still in among the Core Worlds? Leave it be. You're not going to be attacking them anyway.

kzt wrote:"So you say that isn't legal? Here's a form, fill it out and we'll get into the court calendar. I think the first opening is in 6 years. But in the meantime, I think this group of police wish to talk to you."

It's not going to work. There's no bureaucracy to collect taxes from the member states. There's no structure for deciding how they're imposed, or from which budget they'll come. There's no Federal police force which will be universally successful at compelling payment on member worlds.

The Solarian League has survived because (1) it had sufficient revenue to run its government on the basis of imperial-style extraction from non-Core worlds, and (2) it therefore did not ask anyone to pay taxes.

The League will, no doubt, attempt constitutional reform. But even if they did just jump straight past their Assembly and issue bureaucratic degrees of questionable legality, there's nothing in place to actually enforce those decrees. A system of taxation isn't just a law saying you can tax people. Even if they pass the law, the system doesn't exist, and attempting to institute the system will just cause more systems to slip through Kolokoltsov and co's fingers.

Constitutional reform and taxation reform are out.

But. What if the League just started issuing war bonds? That would potentially be a lot simpler to implement, be faster, and wouldn't have the same coercive downsides as inventing a federal tax system. And, under the circumstances, they might actually be successful - assuming people both want the League to survive and are confident that they'll someday be repaid.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
There IS no point in going after the SLN Reserve:

....

To the GA, the reserve is nothing but targets. To the SLN the reserve is something to use to hold onto Verge systems. Eliminating as many SLN hulls as possible makes it that much harder for them to hold things together.

Did you miss Kolokoltsov's thoughts about not having the money to reactivate the reserve, or Kingsford's statement that the reserve is the wrong ships for this war?

"Holding on" to verge systems is the job of Frontier Fleet and the Reserve belongs to Battle Fleet -- IOW not the ships that would be used against Verge systems.

The League doesn't have the money, the manpower, or the time to reactivate the fleet. There is explicit textev that they have no intention of trying to reactivate the reserve.

Even without the ear inside the Madarin's heads, the GA is smart enough to know that destroying the reserve would do more for the SLN than it possibly could for the GA.

Weird Harold"]Loren Pechtel"][Weird Harold"]

There IS no point in going after the SLN Reserve:

....

The League doesn't have the money, the manpower, or the time to reactivate the fleet. There is explicit textev that they have no intention of trying to reactivate the reserve.

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A couple thoughts occur to me --

1) The SLN "Reserve" is in a way similar to the Silisian Squadrons that were found not to exist beyond paper. The SD's, DN's and maybe even 300 year old BB's and BC escorts but without the personnel to operate them.

2) The SLN Reserve may not exist even in an Inactive Fleet mooring -- materiel salvage off the books may have taken everything but the hulls -- and maybe even that.

Activation time and personnel, even without bringing the hulls to SLN current standard will prevent them from being used for anything but raw material for fabrication

-- Stewart

marcus wrote:So here is some food for thought and fun.

So for this thread You are Honor 10 million plus Beowulf n’s have died from a SLN attack you are not allowed for political reasons to attack earth how do you bring down The SLN and Mandarins

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Premise 1 -- All are agreed that the current SLN Fleet are targets for any Mk23 or Mk16G equipped ship (or the RHN / BSDF equivalent).
Premise 2 -- MAllign has manipulated SL and SLN (not necessarily the same thing) into the conflict, however few outside GA are aware of the manipulation.
Premise 3 -- Harrington Doctrine intention / goal is to break up SL into independent, self-supporting territories separate from OFS and SOL.

Follow 3 parallel strategies:

Strategy 1 -- Offer non-aggression and education-trade pacts in Verge and Shell;

Strategy 2 -- Raid / Strike the SL military construction, fabrication and repair facilities with evacuation notices upon strike task force arrival. Leave civilian shipping facilities aside (for now)

Strategy 3 -- Provide free communications home for captured SLN personnel (there are now 3 groups -- Manticore, Talbot and Meyers) -- to bring the concept "home" to the core planets' population -- some of whom might not have as high a standard of living as the uppity neo-barbs.

-- Stewart