Fate of Hancock station?

if you don't count the ops they were part of in first and second yeletsin.

it was a peep BC after all, even if it had been hijacked.

Dauntless wrote:if you don't count the ops they were part of in first and second yeletsin.

it was a peep BC after all, even if it had been hijacked.

I'd count first Yeltsin - it was still a sanctioned operation with the ship under a Havenite CO. Second Yeltsin doesn't count, because by then the Havenite crew had bailed out, leaving the Masadans to it.

So three.

The Battle of Blackbird may count for something, as Theisman and his DD was present and fought.

1st & 2nd Yeltsin and Blackbird were all part of the same op, so even if you count them as a Peep attempt on Grayson, which is debatable, it's only the one.

munroburton wrote:

Dauntless wrote:if you don't count the ops they were part of in first and second yeletsin.

it was a peep BC after all, even if it had been hijacked.

I'd count first Yeltsin - it was still a sanctioned operation with the ship under a Havenite CO. Second Yeltsin doesn't count, because by then the Havenite crew had bailed out, leaving the Masadans to it.

So three.

The Battle of Blackbird may count for something, as Theisman and his DD was present and fought.

Louis R wrote:1st & 2nd Yeltsin and Blackbird were all part of the same op, so even if you count them as a Peep attempt on Grayson, which is debatable, it's only the one.

munroburton wrote:I'd count first Yeltsin - it was still a sanctioned operation with the ship under a Havenite CO. Second Yeltsin doesn't count, because by then the Havenite crew had bailed out, leaving the Masadans to it.

So three.

The Battle of Blackbird may count for something, as Theisman and his DD was present and fought.

We know outright Fourth Yeltsin was Honor commanding First Battle Squadron aboard Terrible, and it was against Thurston. Immediately following her brilliant energy range snookering, Honor herself thought of that battle as Fourth Yeltsin, just before she ended up having to run a bluff against Theisman. With Fourth and First battles established, it's not hard to figure that the remaining battles makes Third Yeltsin Parnell's sneak attack and ambushing by White Haven, and Second Yeltsin was Honor's battle against the Thunder of God.

I'm pretty firmly of the belief that Second through Fourth need to be bumped by one across the board, and Second becoming the Blackbird 'strike' because it was a multi-ship battle with no less than four navies represented. Not to mention it also happened several DAYS following First Yeltsin, aka the battle that killed Courvosier & Madrigal, and the events that led to Honor blackmailing her way to meet Mayhew (and the coup attempt by Maccabeus).

Officially, the Blackbird base attack seems to be designated Battle for Blackbird, which makes sense on the one hand (that was the nearest celestial body preventing hyper), but also wrong because Blackbird is a moon of Uriel which itself is a 'moon' of Yeltsin's Star. The battles to defend Grayson aren't called "First Battle of Grayson" and "Fourth Battle of Grayson". Nearly every other battle, regardless of location, refers to the star where the battle took place, not the nearest celestial body (moon, planet, or otherwise)

The designation of battles is arbitrary and the privilege of the commanders writing the despatches - and needn't even be consistent among the winners, never mind between winners and losers. The Battle of Waterloo, for example, was not fought at, or even immediately outside, Waterloo, but between La Haye Sainte and Belle Alliance. Wellington, however, had the custom of addressing his despatches from the place he slept the night before the battle.

Honorverse combat rarely occurs close enough to a star-system body for it to have any significant role in the battle, but that was certainly the case for Blackbird. If the RMN wants to call it that, not only is that their privilege, but in this case it makes a great deal of sense to do so.

Somtaaw wrote:

Louis R wrote:1st & 2nd Yeltsin and Blackbird were all part of the same op, so even if you count them as a Peep attempt on Grayson, which is debatable, it's only the one.

We know outright Fourth Yeltsin was Honor commanding First Battle Squadron aboard Terrible, and it was against Thurston. Immediately following her brilliant energy range snookering, Honor herself thought of that battle as Fourth Yeltsin, just before she ended up having to run a bluff against Theisman. With Fourth and First battles established, it's not hard to figure that the remaining battles makes Third Yeltsin Parnell's sneak attack and ambushing by White Haven, and Second Yeltsin was Honor's battle against the Thunder of God.

I'm pretty firmly of the belief that Second through Fourth need to be bumped by one across the board, and Second becoming the Blackbird 'strike' because it was a multi-ship battle with no less than four navies represented. Not to mention it also happened several DAYS following First Yeltsin, aka the battle that killed Courvosier & Madrigal, and the events that led to Honor blackmailing her way to meet Mayhew (and the coup attempt by Maccabeus).

Officially, the Blackbird base attack seems to be designated Battle for Blackbird, which makes sense on the one hand (that was the nearest celestial body preventing hyper), but also wrong because Blackbird is a moon of Uriel which itself is a 'moon' of Yeltsin's Star. The battles to defend Grayson aren't called "First Battle of Grayson" and "Fourth Battle of Grayson". Nearly every other battle, regardless of location, refers to the star where the battle took place, not the nearest celestial body (moon, planet, or otherwise)

darrell wrote:
Societies evolve, and what is important and takes up the majority of time for jobs changes with it.

120 years ago, in 1900 CE, the majority of people farmed.

70 years ago, in 1850 CE, the majority of people were in manufacturing.

20 years ago, at the turn of the millennium, the majority of people were in technology jobs.

Today I can see that technology is starting to loose it's grip, but I don't know what will replace it, I just know that something will, as there will never be a society where the majority of the people are idle.

On manticore, less than 1% is in manufacturing, 1-2% is in the military. I would guess 1-2% would be in farming, 1-2% would be in technology. Yes, that is only about 5% of manticores population. I don't know what the rest of the people are doing, but they are doing something, and whatever that something is it is likely to suffer if large numbers moved from that to the military.

Though I can't find texttev that tell us the exact percentage the population involve there are multiple mentions of manticore's large merchant marine and the commitments required to maintain it.Since the RMMM is responsible for large part the known galaxy's shipping capacity. I assume at least 10% to 15%

shadowhawk wrote:Though I can't find texttev that tell us the exact percentage the population involve there are multiple mentions of manticore's large merchant marine and the commitments required to maintain it.Since the RMMM is responsible for large part the known galaxy's shipping capacity. I assume at least 10% to 15%

It's more than that. 30% of all shipping in the League was carried on Manticoran hulls at least part of the way.

Iirc, typical Manticoran freighter crew is something about 20 people. Let's assume the have 25,000 ships. That is 500,000 crew. Which is not a lot of 3 billion people. However there would be support infrastructure, so maybe we are taking about 5 million total people. Still, of 3 billion that is 0.2%.

The problem that they are having now is that they have no way to make money to pay the crew, pay the bank for the loans on the shop or pay the bond that the owe for non-delivery of the cargo they didn't deliver as contracted.

So if you are an Andi shipping company looking for some freighters really cheap...

Louis R wrote:The designation of battles is arbitrary and the privilege of the commanders writing the despatches - and needn't even be consistent among the winners, never mind between winners and losers. The Battle of Waterloo, for example, was not fought at, or even immediately outside, Waterloo, but between La Haye Sainte and Belle Alliance. Wellington, however, had the custom of addressing his despatches from the place he slept the night before the battle.

Honorverse combat rarely occurs close enough to a star-system body for it to have any significant role in the battle, but that was certainly the case for Blackbird. If the RMN wants to call it that, not only is that their privilege, but in this case it makes a great deal of sense to do so.

Somtaaw [quote="Louis R wrote:1st & 2nd Yeltsin and Blackbird were all part of the same op, so even if you count them as a Peep attempt on Grayson, which is debatable, it's only the one.

We know outright Fourth Yeltsin was Honor commanding First Battle Squadron aboard Terrible, and it was against Thurston. Immediately following her brilliant energy range snookering, Honor herself thought of that battle as Fourth Yeltsin, just before she ended up having to run a bluff against Theisman. With Fourth and First battles established, it's not hard to figure that the remaining battles makes Third Yeltsin Parnell's sneak attack and ambushing by White Haven, and Second Yeltsin was Honor's battle against the Thunder of God.

I'm pretty firmly of the belief that Second through Fourth need to be bumped by one across the board, and Second becoming the Blackbird 'strike' because it was a multi-ship battle with no less than four navies represented. Not to mention it also happened several DAYS following First Yeltsin, aka the battle that killed Courvosier & Madrigal, and the events that led to Honor blackmailing her way to meet Mayhew (and the coup attempt by Maccabeus).

Officially, the Blackbird base attack seems to be designated Battle for Blackbird, which makes sense on the one hand (that was the nearest celestial body preventing hyper), but also wrong because Blackbird is a moon of Uriel which itself is a 'moon' of Yeltsin's Star. The battles to defend Grayson aren't called "First Battle of Grayson" and "Fourth Battle of Grayson". Nearly every other battle, regardless of location, refers to the star where the battle took place, not the nearest celestial body (moon, planet, or otherwise)

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Very true on the names of battles. IIRC the Japanese call the Battles of Cape Esparence and First and Second Guadalcanal as the Second and Third battles of Savo Island. Or during the decades after the ACW various battles were known by different names e.g. Bull Run = Manassas, Pittsburgh Landing = Shiloh, Antitem = Sharpsburg.

A couple things to add:

First - RMN officers are seen discussing the need to 'scale back' operations. I can't pull the direct quote right now, but it involves officers discussing how their missile choice (long range SDM) was made in part because the destruction of the facilities capable of building MDMs in OB. Additionally, outside of thruster fuel (which Honor burned through basically in Hades), the range of Honorverse ships is almost indefinite. They don't have to worry about running out of supplies besides missiles, drones, and pods (which have been discussed as valuable and worth saving). As far as the rest of things go - they are at war with a political organization comprised of 2,000 systems AND genetically engineered lunatics intent on remaking mankind in their image. The RMN isn't going to slow its operations out of a fear that they'll run out of supplies - they'll push as far as they can and hope they can get either (A) get the job done, or (B) have new facilities online before they run out of necessary parts and supplies.

Second - look at an Honorverse map. Once Seaford 9 was taken it was only ~10 LY more to go back to Manticore than the trip to Hancock from the Northern front. Thus, the station fell behind the front and became less important. Additionally, there were multiple alliance partners around Hancock that had smaller navies and were capable of building smaller ships. Grendelsbane, on the other hand, is on the extreme southern flank. There is nothing past that. It was out on its own, and became the anchor of the entire southern border (unlike Hancock, which formed an anchor with 3-4 other systems). Grendelsbane was also a decent distance further away than Hancock, meaning it needed a higher native production capability in order to handle any mass repair that came in from the front. That would cause a bigger facility (and probably a few "drydock slips" to be built), which then snowballed into the facility it became when Manticore needed ships RIGHT NOW and couldn't build new slips fast enough in the home system. Grendelsbane was the easiest system to expand to a full shipyard, so they sent the people there and just kept expanding until the day of the truce.

Third - Hancock will 'never' be built into a major shipyard. Why? Because it isn't a real member of the SEM. The top candidate for a major shipyard is Trevor's Star, as its just a wormhole away and has an intelligent workforce capable of doing the work. The next systems in line to get major shipyards? All in Talbott. Once the Home Systems yards are well on their way (say, 33% their pre-OB size) and Manticore is starting to run into the problem of training enough workers to fill every slip I could easily see some construction teams send to Talbott to start building a shipyard or 3 there. The Quadrant has a massive population, and teaching them how to be yarddogs has to be easier than teaching them everything a sailor (especially an officer) needs. I could see Spindle, Rembrandt, and one other (Redoubt or Dresden) getting some help in putting in shipyards. At first, they would obviously be geared towards LACs, DDs (if still a viable class), and Cruisers. Manticore would provide officers and core crew and start training the currently in-training native LAC crews on the new ships. Eventually, the yards would probably be expanded to build BCs, CLACs, and SDs as well. While that is years off, its much more likely than building Hancock station into a major construction center. Trevor's Star and Talbott have the native populations to make the shipyards completely independent of Manticoran personnel, which is a big draw. Plus, it would more tightly integrate Talbott into the Empire - something the current government actually cares about.