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Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory

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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Roguevictory   » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:48 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Reread Torch of Freedom... just coz'... and I have my own theory now, which is that the Mannerheim SDF and Darius have to get whacked before RFC can conclude the series. The MAN naval officer who was with the PNE that attacked Torch felt like they could tear the A$$ off any other Navy in space, EXCEPT Haven and Manticore, likely they're lumping the IAN and the GSN in as well.

Zilwicki or Cachat also mentioned that Beowulf was likely to go from quiet tiger to "rip Mesa a new one" before the MAlign bugged out. We do know that the manipulated plan is for the SL to take out Beowulf near term, which would have negated Beowulf vs. Mannerheim and Darius had Haven and Manticore slagged each other back to 3rd tier status like Detweiler hoped.

So I think the RF goes the way of the dodo bird when Manticore blows those two space navy forces all to heck. I was going to say "and lets the Treecats eat the Malign" but likely the little furballs have better sense than that so "lets the treecats feed said Detweilers to the heart of a star or a hungry clan of Hexapumas."


The only way the RF will be completely destroyed is if the GA takes out every member government. Taking out Darius and Mannerheim will hurt the RF but there is no reason the remaining RF systems can't adapt and carry on.

And since on of the points of the Malign plan was to set things up so anyone who claimed an RF government was allied with Mesa would be believed to be either lying or utterly insane by most of the galaxy even if the GA somehow gets a list of RF systems the instant it starts attacking them most of humanity are going to believe any claim that the RF worlds are allied with Mesa is just a lie to allow the GA to seize more territory. This will lead to systems uniting against the GA and the future becoming very, very ugly.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by phillies   » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:14 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:[quote=

Actually, I think his desire to see the final MAlign victory in his "prolonged" life-span would lead to a a temper tantrum on the same level as the one that led Leonard Detweiler to stomp off the Mesa where, "Beowulf can't tell Me what to do."

Albrecht is horrible intelligent but not very wise. He's already demonstrated a tendency to go off half-cocked in pushing up Oyster Bay and Houdini when his half-baked plans responding to the Manticoran discovery of the Lynx Terminus. A rolling on the floor with feet kicking tantrum wouldn't surprise me greatly, although another half-baked plan to salvage the Great Plan is more likely -- including using the Lenny Dets to further the Renaissance Factor's progress.


In thinking about this, it occurs to me that Albrecht Detweiller's biggest blind spot is that he's too used to playing against an opponent who's oblivious to the fact that there's a war on! He's too dependent on the opposition not picking up on random clues. Once he unleashes the Lenny Dets, a few mysterious cases where a systen's infrastructure has been wiped out are going to start adding up in people's minds.

I believe that Sun Tzu had a paragraph or so about that.[/quote]
==========
The Alignment has only cared it is not technically guilty of an EE violation to keep somebody (particularly the SL) from getting interested or motivated to search them out because they committed an EE violation. Remember, Grayson and Manticore are already going to be searching long and hard to find out who hit their orbitals, getting the SL (or any body else) interested in finding the culprits (at this point the Mandarin's at least could not actualy care which is at best short sighted of them given the scope and technology of the attack) because it was an EE violation.

You will recall that the Alignment doesn't actual care how many Normals are going to be killed in the fighting and chaos of the events leading up to and then the breakup of the SL?

THEY DO NOT CARE.

Given that the GA now appears to be massivly changing the direction of the Alighment plans and truly screwing with all manner of Alignment's timetable, will there come a point where the Alignment will just go ahead and try to do more than just take out the governments of the major impediments?

Oyster Bay was designed and planned to cripple at least one major power in the orchestrated destruction of the SL and allow for the rise of the RF and implimentation of the Alignment's policies, plans, and control of the destiny of humanity. The original target seems to have been People's Republic of Haven but that got changed. Manticore didn't get taken over (how unsuporting and uncooperative of them) and the targets were changed on the fly were advanced to take out Manticore and Grayson's infrastuctue but the attack was both much earlier and much smaller than planned because of the timing and the tech imbalance.

What is to keep the Alignment from changeing the operational plan and timing again? Ok, Houdini has come off- so far- mostly to plan but there are loose ends although the Alignment doen't know about those yet. Given the track record of Manticore and the restored Republic of Haven, it is POSSIBLE that Mesa will actually become a threat to the Alignment as the surviving government (old and we presume new) and emerging Sr. officials (like the Peaceforce General) have to deal with realization that they were less than pawns and obviously expendable is someone else's plan.

So, run another early and preemptive strike on more than just orbital infrastructure of a number of systems/polities and include at least one EE level strike on "major" planets involved. Sure, use the Sharks and the 1st Lenny Dets that come off the yards if you can get them fast enough but at least the Sharks and probably the Ghosts and any other Spider Drive ships even if you have to strap the ordnance to the hulls. And, only one ship per system this time since you aren't going to wipe out the orbitals, you are going to throw a weapon at the planet. Manticore, Sphinx, Gryphon, Grayson, Sol. The Aldermani capital and at least one nodal headquarters, Erwhon, Haven and two or three major planets of RH, Beowulf, 6 or 7 other major SL systems that are actually at level (political/tech) to challange THE PLAN going forward. Leave out the dozen RF seed systems, they should be nominally "small" enough to not get hit in a strike on the primary systems of Haven, Manticore, Grayson, Aldermani Empire, Erwhon, and 5 major SL systems plus Sol.


There are more than "hints" out there. The SL even acknowledges that "someone" with tech beyond anybody they know of , INCLUDING Manticore, hit at least the Manticore system. It wasn't Haven. NOBODY is taking responsibilty for it. While they might not even recognize Grayson as a "player" in the Haven/Manticore war (big mistake on the SL's part) the must know that Grayson was also hit by the same type of weapons and tactics as Manticore.

Just how many militaries, scattered though human space and getting report or have observers on what has been happening out in the Haven Quadrant have to be hit between the eyes with a 2x4 before it sinks in that SOMEBODY is playing with some really new stuff and it isn't anybody that anybody knows of and that really smells.

Sure, Manticore and Haven have broadcast this Alignment theory which is being ridiculed by the Mandarin's and the tame Solly press. But if EVERYBODY who is fighting ANYBODY now or in the last five years has not either been hit by nor used these weapons and stealth ability, it would seem that there is a NEW PLAYER out there with massive resources and tech that nobody- so far- can detect until they are struck.

It has got to make someone wonder. They can't all be as thick as Solly Admirals or the Sr. League bureaucracy.[/quote]

In addition, I continue to be surprised that no one in the RMN high command suspected that the attack might have been an incursion of the heretofore unknown Invincible Empire of the Orglon species.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by pnakasone   » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:56 pm

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I would say it is safe bet that the Alignment expected to lose at least a few of the RF worlds during the events of the fallout of the league. Now the odds of all of them getting clobbered is very small.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:40 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Reread Torch of Freedom... just coz'... and I have my own theory now, which is that the Mannerheim SDF and Darius have to get whacked before RFC can conclude the series. The MAN naval officer who was with the PNE that attacked Torch felt like they could tear the A$$ off any other Navy in space, EXCEPT Haven and Manticore, likely they're lumping the IAN and the GSN in as well.

Zilwicki or Cachat also mentioned that Beowulf was likely to go from quiet tiger to "rip Mesa a new one" before the MAlign bugged out. We do know that the manipulated plan is for the SL to take out Beowulf near term, which would have negated Beowulf vs. Mannerheim and Darius had Haven and Manticore slagged each other back to 3rd tier status like Detweiler hoped.

So I think the RF goes the way of the dodo bird when Manticore blows those two space navy forces all to heck. I was going to say "and lets the Treecats eat the Malign" but likely the little furballs have better sense than that so "lets the treecats feed said Detweilers to the heart of a star or a hungry clan of Hexapumas."


You raise a good point - what happens to the RF to close out the series? I think it's fairly obvious that Darius has to be dealt with. If they discover Felix, which I don't regard as a foregone conclusion, they'll discover Mannerheim and its complicity. Given the time sequence, Mannerheim will already be known to be part of the RF, unless Detweiller stops that plan before the big announcement. This is barely possible, since he has his "oh, shit" moment a month or so after he cut the plans to announce the RF, and before they learn what happened to Filaretta.

The thing here is that, for the MAlign's plan to succeed, they need the level of genetic engineering to make it happen. There's no evidence that it exists anywhere except Mesa and Darius.

The GA needs a decent pretext to take out Mannerheim; simply announcing that Mannerheim is one of the Big Bads won't hack it. Discovering that there is a Mannerheim task force at The Twins will, especially when they announce the Torch, Twins, Felix, Darius connection.

Which leaves the question of what to do with the rest of the RF? I'd say simply leave them. If the GA has actually mopped up the MAlign, then they don't form any kind of a threat. The most they should do is show up with a battle squadron and a bunch of treecats and announce that they have credible evidence that certain families are part of the MAlign, and they want questions answered. With treecats and in the presence of unaligned intelligence operatives and newscasters.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:10 pm

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Ok,
The Alighment pulls the trigger on the "spontaneous" revolutions (other than the stuff we have seen just being fermented in Talbott) and the RF comes into the open.

Just how do they do that? Is it announced that - after months and YEARS of quiet negotiations- a DOZEN Systems, possibly scattered across known humand space announced they have formed the RF and --at esentialy the same time- leap to the support of a "bunch" of systems that have "suddenly" revolted against FS and OFS.

Now that would smell just a bit like a long term conspiracy to someone. OFS, certainly. Manticore, Haven and friends, yeah, just a bit.

While it is possible that this is going to be the unveiling of the RF, it is more likely that as these "revolutions" erupt, several systems (that just happen to be members of the future RF) elect to come to the aid of the "patriots" of "neighboring" systems who have had long term ties and both cultural and trade relations with them. Helping them throw off the yoke of OFS and it's transtellar clients and taking a stand against planet piracy by OFS.

Those busybodies at Manticore seem to run around sticking their noses into all sorts of OFS direct and related planetary problems and they do have a history of doing it. Really big and apparently really tough and capable navy. Some how, having a DOZEN relatively minor(or at least quiet) systems suddenly do this AND launch something that is VERY POINTEDLY directed at OFS and the SL would be just so inviting a retribution by FF and BF who are in such deep shit at this point that the litteraly cannot afford to let anybody else just up and defy the SL and it's OFS.
At this point we don't have ANY idea of any of the RF have much beyond "normal" SL tech an capability. Just go ahead and trot out ONE piece of that interesting stuff used by the people who hit Manticore and Grayson and the whole curtain is ripped away....THEY DID IT, THEY .....fill in nessisary conclusions here. RF gets pounded by AT LEAST the SL. Heck just how many squadrons of 2nd string SL SD's would it take to crush the Mannheim SDF/Navy? We don't actually know if Mannheim HAS any SDs.
Or the Detweilers think that this is -because their RF is way ahead in tech than the SL, which we haven't seen - they can survive 30 SDs showing up at the home systems and "adjusting" the problem. Of course this would tend to annoy a lot of SL and non-SL members but then it would be one way of gettng the SL to hurry up and shatter. Tough on the RL member planets though, to get stomped and the political leadership crushed by the SLN.

That is much more likely than the 12 systems "suddenly" becomeing a Federation. But I don't have any clue what RFC is actually planning.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by darrell   » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:12 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Ok,
The Alighment pulls the trigger on the "spontaneous" revolutions (other than the stuff we have seen just being fermented in Talbott) and the RF comes into the open.

Just how do they do that? Is it announced that - after months and YEARS of quiet negotiations- a DOZEN Systems, possibly scattered across known humand space announced they have formed the RF and --at esentialy the same time- leap to the support of a "bunch" of systems that have "suddenly" revolted against FS and OFS.

Now that would smell just a bit like a long term conspiracy to someone. OFS, certainly. Manticore, Haven and friends, yeah, just a bit.

While it is possible that this is going to be the unveiling of the RF, it is more likely that as these "revolutions" erupt, several systems (that just happen to be members of the future RF) elect to come to the aid of the "patriots" of "neighboring" systems who have had long term ties and both cultural and trade relations with them. Helping them throw off the yoke of OFS and it's transtellar clients and taking a stand against planet piracy by OFS.

Those busybodies at Manticore seem to run around sticking their noses into all sorts of OFS direct and related planetary problems and they do have a history of doing it. Really big and apparently really tough and capable navy. Some how, having a DOZEN relatively minor(or at least quiet) systems suddenly do this AND launch something that is VERY POINTEDLY directed at OFS and the SL would be just so inviting a retribution by FF and BF who are in such deep shit at this point that the litteraly cannot afford to let anybody else just up and defy the SL and it's OFS.
At this point we don't have ANY idea of any of the RF have much beyond "normal" SL tech an capability. Just go ahead and trot out ONE piece of that interesting stuff used by the people who hit Manticore and Grayson and the whole curtain is ripped away....THEY DID IT, THEY .....fill in nessisary conclusions here. RF gets pounded by AT LEAST the SL. Heck just how many squadrons of 2nd string SL SD's would it take to crush the Mannheim SDF/Navy? We don't actually know if Mannheim HAS any SDs.
Or the Detweilers think that this is -because their RF is way ahead in tech than the SL, which we haven't seen - they can survive 30 SDs showing up at the home systems and "adjusting" the problem. Of course this would tend to annoy a lot of SL and non-SL members but then it would be one way of gettng the SL to hurry up and shatter. Tough on the RL member planets though, to get stomped and the political leadership crushed by the SLN.

That is much more likely than the 12 systems "suddenly" becomeing a Federation. But I don't have any clue what RFC is actually planning.


The graser technology and the spider drive are new, the rest of what the MA used in oyster bay was existing SL technology.

The Cataphract is a mesa technology, not SL. Any RF world will have cataphract C missiles pods in sufficient quantity to fight off a major SL task force.
<><><><><><><><><><><><>
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:47 pm

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I kind of like the ending of "Stone Dogs". Though it would have been nice if Steve had any understanding of how microwave propagation is impacted by moisture, because I did and it made no sense what he had happening.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Sheila   » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:42 pm

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I find it interesting that Albrecht "sons" are referred to as clones. This implies that there weren't any major changes between them and their father. This inturn implies that there has not been any major improvement in the Alpha lines in more than a generation. And this then implies that either that the Mesans have been coasting or that they have been looking in the wrong places for additional improvements.


Louis R wrote:Albrecht is probably a lot older than he looks to be, and while it wouldn't surprise me if an Alpha line could accept prolong for a longer period than a 'normal', it also wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't work for them at all [IOW, the therapy duplicates the mods that are built-in to Mesans, and the life-extension mechanism is already saturated.] Either way, if Abrecht was decanted fairly late in Papa's life, his parents could well already have run out their natural, to the extent they were 'natural', spans. That might be particularly true if, as older-model superpersons, they didn't get the fully developed life-span enhancement - that is, they could have used prolong, but it wasn't around in time to do them any good.

Or, of course, as a rational man would, Abrecht's father ceded control of the family enterprise to his more-capable son, and is now ensconced as Governor of Darius. Since we've never actually been there, we wouldn't know about that.

As for siblings and cousins, it's implied that the boys were created specifically to provide him with a cadre of equally capable executive vice-despots as the Plan rolled into it's end-game. Prior to that, it would seem to have been one Detweiler at a time since the line went underground, each better engineered than the last. What I can't figure out is why Evelina didn't get at least one daughter for her own.

munroburton wrote:I do find it curious that Albrecht has no living parents and appears to have no siblings(the clones are considered his sons). No cousins either.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by JohnRoth   » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:07 pm

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Sheila wrote:I find it interesting that Albrecht "sons" are referred to as clones. This implies that there weren't any major changes between them and their father. This inturn implies that there has not been any major improvement in the Alpha lines in more than a generation. And this then implies that either that the Mesans have been coasting or that they have been looking in the wrong places for additional improvements.


Um, no.

On 2014-04-14 RFC wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.
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Re: Just for the Halibut... What of the RF post GA victory
Post by Louis R   » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:22 pm

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Thanks. I'd forgotten that bit. You'd think that hitting the jackpot like that, and having to fire up the Xerox machine to take advantage of it, would have taught the LRPB a little more humility than we appear to be seeing from them. OTOH, the arrogance of the entire enterprise is so overwheening that any little drops of humility would vanish without much trace anyway.

JohnRoth wrote:
Sheila wrote:I find it interesting that Albrecht "sons" are referred to as clones. This implies that there weren't any major changes between them and their father. This inturn implies that there has not been any major improvement in the Alpha lines in more than a generation. And this then implies that either that the Mesans have been coasting or that they have been looking in the wrong places for additional improvements.


Um, no.

On 2014-04-14 RFC wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.
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