Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Last use for SL SD captured

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:51 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5035
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Fireflair wrote:System defense with LACs is a great idea and now the norm for most GA systems. I'm not sure what plan they have for the LAC deployment though. There have a been a couple of different bits of textev that show different deployment options. I don't think that a dispersed plan is the way to go. LACs were best in a swarm, because a an attacking force can't cover every angle and that opens them up to multiple vulnerable shots by the LACs, too many to protect from. If you disperse the LACs, unless you have incredible numbers of them, than you're inviting defeat for each small group by an opponent who's willing to come wading into them, or brings missiles.

To avoid defeat in detail you'd need to keep your strength relatively close together so they could be mutually supporting. I'd imagine several LAC bases, but all within relatively close proximity to each other, just as whatever they would be protecting would be relatively close. I would not want my LACs penny packeted out around the star system in the asteroid belt or Ort cloud just to have forces covering everything. Sorry, but the smelters in the belts are expendable. Having my LACs lack the strength to really be effective because of dispersion is not acceptable.

We know at some of the allied home systems Manticore used a combination of in-system (presumably near planets) and out-system (near or beyond the hyper limit) LAC bases.

I'm not sure exactly why but I could make a couple guesses. Having relatively hidden out-system bases could help you actually capture or kill raiders or scouts -- they get chased away by the LAC swarm forming up in-system and run right into an ambush on the way out. If it doesn't happen too often it can get chalked up to happenstance or running across a patrol flight - without giving away the actual basing of LACs out system.
The other thing it could be very useful for is if you were anticipating fighting an enemy who was towing heavy pods (either because they didn't have podlayers or because they were pre-rolling for an alpha strike) - then you might again use the in-system LACs or ships to fix the enemy's focus and use LACs sneaking up from behind to attempt to first strike those exposed pods; replicating the opening of 2nd Hancock.

But those system were important enough politically to be provided with incredible numbers of LACs supplemented by shoals of system defense missile pods. Most people likely won't be able to quickly acquire or man defenses of that magnitude.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:13 am

Theemile
Admiral

Posts: 2497
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

Jonathan_S wrote:
Fireflair wrote:System defense with LACs is a great idea and now the norm for most GA systems. I'm not sure what plan they have for the LAC deployment though. There have a been a couple of different bits of textev that show different deployment options. I don't think that a dispersed plan is the way to go. LACs were best in a swarm, because a an attacking force can't cover every angle and that opens them up to multiple vulnerable shots by the LACs, too many to protect from. If you disperse the LACs, unless you have incredible numbers of them, than you're inviting defeat for each small group by an opponent who's willing to come wading into them, or brings missiles.

To avoid defeat in detail you'd need to keep your strength relatively close together so they could be mutually supporting. I'd imagine several LAC bases, but all within relatively close proximity to each other, just as whatever they would be protecting would be relatively close. I would not want my LACs penny packeted out around the star system in the asteroid belt or Ort cloud just to have forces covering everything. Sorry, but the smelters in the belts are expendable. Having my LACs lack the strength to really be effective because of dispersion is not acceptable.

We know at some of the allied home systems Manticore used a combination of in-system (presumably near planets) and out-system (near or beyond the hyper limit) LAC bases.

I'm not sure exactly why but I could make a couple guesses. Having relatively hidden out-system bases could help you actually capture or kill raiders or scouts -- they get chased away by the LAC swarm forming up in-system and run right into an ambush on the way out. If it doesn't happen too often it can get chalked up to happenstance or running across a patrol flight - without giving away the actual basing of LACs out system.
The other thing it could be very useful for is if you were anticipating fighting an enemy who was towing heavy pods (either because they didn't have podlayers or because they were pre-rolling for an alpha strike) - then you might again use the in-system LACs or ships to fix the enemy's focus and use LACs sneaking up from behind to attempt to first strike those exposed pods; replicating the opening of 2nd Hancock.

But those system were important enough politically to be provided with incredible numbers of LACs supplemented by shoals of system defense missile pods. Most people likely won't be able to quickly acquire or man defenses of that magnitude.



I would think the out system LAC bases are to support hyper limit and beyond hyper limit scouting. Their broods would trail any attacker, and play wack-a-scout and wack-a-pirate along the hyper limit. They may be used to "Close the backdoor" on an attacker with strikes coordinated with the inner defenses, or try to hunt down the waiting CLACS behind the attacking forces. The outer bases would probably be smaller than inner system LAC bases, designed to support only a squadron or 2, but allow LACS to quickly rotate through their patrol sectors, while also giving out system reload and repair points for the main LAC forces. If they had missile pods, they would also be the control nexus for the pods in their area.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:02 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8552
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Bases outside the stars hyper limit are horribly vulnerable once an attacker knows where they are. The hyper limit of something like ceres is less than energy range, so an attacker could pop out and blow the base away 10 seconds later.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:38 pm

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

Jonathan_S wrote:Huh, I read that as MAD-4A saying that in the face of a non-hyper CLAC the attacking force could fall back, jump across the system, and coming in from a new angle; leaving the local CLAC horribly out of position.
Right
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:36 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1635
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

kzt wrote:Bases outside the stars hyper limit are horribly vulnerable once an attacker knows where they are. The hyper limit of something like ceres is less than energy range, so an attacker could pop out and blow the base away 10 seconds later.



That is why you have a fast non hyper CLAC. It can roam the system and rotate LAC around the system. Plus carry 25 Odd LAC reserve on down time. If you have lots of LAC, 400+ You can have a three days/weeks on 1 day/week off rotation and have 100 LAC on your CLAC all the time.
________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:44 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Lord Skimper wrote:That is why you have a fast non hyper CLAC. It can roam the system and rotate LAC around the system.


Since Smaller=Faster why would LACs need the slow transit of a DN sized CLAC when they can get anywhere faster under their own power?
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by The E   » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:53 am

The E
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Paderborn, Germany

Lord Skimper wrote:That is why you have a fast non hyper CLAC. It can roam the system and rotate LAC around the system. Plus carry 25 Odd LAC reserve on down time. If you have lots of LAC, 400+ You can have a three days/weeks on 1 day/week off rotation and have 100 LAC on your CLAC all the time.


An LAC can get from any point in a system to any point in a system in a matter of hours or days. The only reason CLACs exist is because LACs do not have any strategic mobility at all (on account of them lacking hyper generators); there's no need to ferry LACs around in a system.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:01 am

Theemile
Admiral

Posts: 2497
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

The E wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:That is why you have a fast non hyper CLAC. It can roam the system and rotate LAC around the system. Plus carry 25 Odd LAC reserve on down time. If you have lots of LAC, 400+ You can have a three days/weeks on 1 day/week off rotation and have 100 LAC on your CLAC all the time.


An LAC can get from any point in a system to any point in a system in a matter of hours or days. The only reason CLACs exist is because LACs do not have any strategic mobility at all (on account of them lacking hyper generators); there's no need to ferry LACs around in a system.



1 point he's saying an out system LAC base should be mobile to prevent an attacker from finding the locus of the out system base.

However, more important then "fast" is stealth. How quickly an out system LAC base shifts positions is not as important that it can do so without anyone noticing it exists. Usually, large wedges moving fast are seen by everyone in the system - you need to move slow enough so a low powered wedge can be hidden by stealth features. And that can be done on a fort hull or mercie hull.

But the only advantages an out system base gives are fast LAC surge ability at the hyperlimit, and a backup base in the event the system is taken, allowing surviving LACS to pester the attackers and picket the system for the relief force. The majority of your LACs should be based at the main planet ( i.e. the point which must be defended), so they are between the strike force and the target. Otherwise, LACS can reach any point in a system faster than any other craft and have the ability to loiter for several days (even the 1st gen Cimeterres had a 4 Day endurance), so an out system base is a luxury, not a necessity.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:53 am

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

Lord Skimper wrote:That is why you have a fast non hyper CLAC. It can roam the system and rotate LAC around the system. Plus carry 25 Odd LAC reserve on down time. If you have lots of LAC, 400+ You can have a three days/weeks on 1 day/week off rotation and have 100 LAC on your CLAC all the time.
Ah, I think I'm gleaning his meaning, it's not a matter of 'need' but 'convenience' so the LACs can stay on station longer while they wait for the LAC "bus" to show up, drop off their relief (fresh), then pick them up. Though I fail to see the need to remove the FTL systems to accomplish this, the ship would be more useful with FTL as an auxiliary CLAC that can be used elsewhere, instead of being crippled within that system.


It would also provide an emergency evacuation option for the LACs if the system were to face an obviously overwhelming invasion force, (like a system with 1-200 LACs suddenly finds itself facing 1000 Soly SD with support ships - don't care how much better you are you don't have THAT many missile - RUN! Preserve the personnel and equipment you can).
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by phillies   » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:36 am

phillies
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

There is an obvious military use, if cost inefficient.

Target dummies.
Top

Return to Honorverse