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Last use for SL SD captured

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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:15 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:So how hard would it be to load a Military wedge from a Scientist on a Freighter based CLAC? Add ERM end tubes with a CLAC hammerhead, Pull the displays and sensors, Counter Missiles and Point Defense from the Scientists, Some Bunks, life support and shuttle bays etc... Nodes, Maybe Hyperspace and sails, then make a container based LAC dock and just make a 100+ LAC CLAC, from each Scientist. No need to grab anything big or hard to get to from the armoured magazines or removing armour, except the CM and PD.

The CLAC could also be run with Beta Squared Nodes, remove the Hyper drive and keep it in system.

The CLAC and LAC are very SD like for intimidation factor, with Beta Squared Nodes it would appear to be a Modern SD(P). Can be in many places and The basic ship can be made from a shell very quickly. Using container parts one can make a basic LAC module then copy it over and over again.

Also smaller systems almost always run LAC so stepping them up to Manty LAC won't be as big a deal as going up to a SD. Yet will make a big difference militarily. Giving these systems a CLAC to carry these LAC would solve many problems. One could also run with second line Manty Crews for the CLAC and use local crews for the LAC, with training move the in system crews into the CLAC and move the Manty Crews into the Support ships, when they arrive.

An export version of the LAC, the tech that is given to torch, can be made available for the new systems and with 100+ LAC securing a system. Even a League SD would have problems.

As for support having Haven build a bunch of Nike BCL's would would complete the security of the systems and would coordinate all LAC activities amoung local systems.


1) Moving the "wedge" from a Scientist to a freighter, would require ripping out the engine rooms, nodes, compensator, hyper generator, and particle screens (and probably a Fusion room or 2) from the Scientist and mounting them in a freighter. Doing so would essentially require building a new freighter, using the old parts.

2)To maintain the old parts, the Freighter will require a crew 20-40x the size it currently has (<50 people), and require much more frequent servicing, raising the cost of ownership beyond the advantage of using a "freighter" hull.

3) Beta squared nodes are high tech Manty parts, not found on Scientists. Putting the beta squared nodes in place of normal nodes physically replaces 2 beta nodes with 1 Beta squared node and gives extra power. It requires a complete rebuilding of the engine rooms and the replacement of all the nodes to balance the ring. This is why the Beta squared nodes are only on new construction and not retrofitted into older, but still viable ships like Star Knights.

4) A ship with the fancy beta squared nodes doesn't necessarily accelerate any faster or have a higher top end. This is governed by the compensator, which the old decrepit one in the Scientist will limit you to 421.9G independent of the wedge's upper power capability

5)If you want to build a high tech Manty ship, rip out all the above systems from the Scientist.... them throw them away. Then order new parts from Manticore and wait 6 years for them to arrive.

6) If your CLAC is in system, it doesn't have to be mobile, it's a dock for the mobile parts, the LACS. Yes that makes it vulnerable, but you should have the LACS go out to intercept the attack, far from their dock. If the LACS are gone, who cares about what happens to their dock. Fixed LAC bases are a routine part of the 2nd Havenite war, on both sides, and are being deployed to Talbott systems to support the LAC wings there.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by munroburton   » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:57 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:An export version of the LAC, the tech that is given to torch, can be made available for the new systems and with 100+ LAC securing a system. Even a League SD would have problems.


Haven's LAC production lines weren't affected by Oyster Bay. Even if they don't start producing Shrike/Katana/Ferret, surplus Cimeterres are a far more likely candidate for mass export.

At some point, all those lovely RMN tech goodies will get into the hands of Shannon Foraker's star LAC designer. Whether the Havenites switch to the RMN/GSN LAC models or stuff that technology into a new Cimeterre variant, the currently existing Cimeterres' days in Havenite service are numbered.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Castenea   » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:12 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:So how hard would it be to load a Military wedge from a Scientist on a Freighter based CLAC? Add ERM end tubes with a CLAC hammerhead, Pull the displays and sensors, Counter Missiles and Point Defense from the Scientists, Some Bunks, life support and shuttle bays etc... Nodes, Maybe Hyperspace and sails, then make a container based LAC dock and just make a 100+ LAC CLAC, from each Scientist. No need to grab anything big or hard to get to from the armoured magazines or removing armour, except the CM and PD.
I believe that someone will actually try this, just not any member of the GA. I expect the Scientist/Vegas sacrificed for this project to come from the SLN reserves not the ships captured at Manticore or Spindle. Manticore has access to a bunch of under utilized freighters currently, and has no need for a cludge of a mil spec freighter.
An export version of the LAC, the tech that is given to torch, can be made available for the new systems and with 100+ LAC securing a system. Even a League SD would have problems.
I would be interested in what Haven, Erewhon and Andermani empire are offering for export. While not to the same combat standards as the Manty/Grayson first line stuff, it is likely to be a major upgrade from what is currently available.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:18 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:The CLAC could also be run with Beta Squared Nodes, remove the Hyper drive and keep it in system.

I don't see the point, LACs can patrol in-system anyway, a CLAC is to carry them between systems for the fleet.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:52 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:The CLAC could also be run with Beta Squared Nodes, remove the Hyper drive and keep it in system.

I don't see the point, LACs can patrol in-system anyway, a CLAC is to carry them between systems for the fleet.

Agreed. The LACs have enough endurance for likely in-system missions and they're quicker and stealthier than a CLAC.

I guess it would let you relocate your LAC bases more easily - but I don't see a huge benefit to doing so. The system assets you need to cover don't move around much so a station or fort with minimal (< 100 gees) ability to move itself seems plenty.

If you had a mission that required repeated LAC strikes, returning to rearm between them, then maybe a LAC tender capable of accelerating hard enough to shadow an enemy force might be useful. But even that has a couple downsides - if you're all that close they'll be able to track the inbound raids from watching the docking / undocking activity around the CLAC. Plus even with an accel advantage unless you've very lucky with your original position and vector you can't easily match vectors with an inbound fleet; at least not very far out.

Hardly worth saving maybe 15% of the cost of a CLAC to give up all it's strategic flexibility.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:20 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Agreed. The LACs have enough endurance for likely in-system missions and they're quicker and stealthier than a CLAC.

I guess it would let you relocate your LAC bases more easily - but I don't see a huge benefit to doing so. The system assets you need to cover don't move around much so a station or fort with minimal (< 100 gees) ability to move itself seems plenty.

If you had a mission that required repeated LAC strikes, returning to rearm between them, then maybe a LAC tender capable of accelerating hard enough to shadow an enemy force might be useful. But even that has a couple downsides - if you're all that close they'll be able to track the inbound raids from watching the docking / undocking activity around the CLAC. Plus even with an accel advantage unless you've very lucky with your original position and vector you can't easily match vectors with an inbound fleet; at least not very far out.

Hardly worth saving maybe 15% of the cost of a CLAC to give up all it's strategic flexibility.


by the time you could go back, rearm and return, they would be able to reach the limit, short-hop to the other side of the system and come in at a new angle, or just go away. Find more-tender-meat.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:58 am

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MAD-4A wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Agreed. The LACs have enough endurance for likely in-system missions and they're quicker and stealthier than a CLAC.

I guess it would let you relocate your LAC bases more easily - but I don't see a huge benefit to doing so. The system assets you need to cover don't move around much so a station or fort with minimal (< 100 gees) ability to move itself seems plenty.

If you had a mission that required repeated LAC strikes, returning to rearm between them, then maybe a LAC tender capable of accelerating hard enough to shadow an enemy force might be useful. But even that has a couple downsides - if you're all that close they'll be able to track the inbound raids from watching the docking / undocking activity around the CLAC. Plus even with an accel advantage unless you've very lucky with your original position and vector you can't easily match vectors with an inbound fleet; at least not very far out.

Hardly worth saving maybe 15% of the cost of a CLAC to give up all it's strategic flexibility.


by the time you could go back, rearm and return, they would be able to reach the limit, short-hop to the other side of the system and come in at a new angle, or just go away. Find more-tender-meat.


That Would Be If You Used A Full Up CLAC. Skimmer is advocating using essentially a full up mil-spec CLAC without hyper capability for local defense.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:31 pm

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Theemile wrote:
MAD-4A wrote:by the time you could go back, rearm and return, they would be able to reach the limit, short-hop to the other side of the system and come in at a new angle, or just go away. Find more-tender-meat.


That Would Be If You Used A Full Up CLAC. Skimmer is advocating using essentially a full up mil-spec CLAC without hyper capability for local defense.

Huh, I read that as MAD-4A saying that in the face of a non-hyper CLAC the attacking force could fall back, jump across the system, and coming in from a new angle; leaving the local CLAC horribly out of position.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:50 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:by the time you could go back, rearm and return, they would be able to reach the limit, short-hop to the other side of the system and come in at a new angle, or just go away. Find more-tender-meat.


Theemile wrote:That Would Be If You Used A Full Up CLAC. Skimmer is advocating using essentially a full up mil-spec CLAC without hyper capability for local defense.

Jonathan_S wrote:Huh, I read that as MAD-4A saying that in the face of a non-hyper CLAC the attacking force could fall back, jump across the system, and coming in from a new angle; leaving the local CLAC horribly out of position.


Rereading it, you may be right - I read the 3rd person pronouns as if it was the CLAC doing the hopping, not the bogies.

Going back to the premise, a properly built defense would probably have multiple LAC bases in different locations allowing quicker responses from "sector" LAC forces, giving damage redundancy, allowing LACS to fade in different directions after attacks to mask the bases' locations, and having a base or 2 hidden outsystem to allow surviving LACs a place to harass the attackers and continue scouting for the relief force. using a merchie hull tender (which was mentioned for Talbot forces) would also be a good idea, so it could be the out system base.
******
RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Fireflair   » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:33 am

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System defense with LACs is a great idea and now the norm for most GA systems. I'm not sure what plan they have for the LAC deployment though. There have a been a couple of different bits of textev that show different deployment options. I don't think that a dispersed plan is the way to go. LACs were best in a swarm, because a an attacking force can't cover every angle and that opens them up to multiple vulnerable shots by the LACs, too many to protect from. If you disperse the LACs, unless you have incredible numbers of them, than you're inviting defeat for each small group by an opponent who's willing to come wading into them, or brings missiles.

To avoid defeat in detail you'd need to keep your strength relatively close together so they could be mutually supporting. I'd imagine several LAC bases, but all within relatively close proximity to each other, just as whatever they would be protecting would be relatively close. I would not want my LACs penny packeted out around the star system in the asteroid belt or Ort cloud just to have forces covering everything. Sorry, but the smelters in the belts are expendable. Having my LACs lack the strength to really be effective because of dispersion is not acceptable.
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