Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests

Last use for SL SD captured

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by saber964   » Sat May 06, 2017 8:23 pm

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2423
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

Everyone is overlooking one important thing regarding SLN POW's. The biggest is all the former POW camps for RHN POW's, they didn't exactly bulldoze them into the ground. Knowing that the SLN was on the way. Remember the timeline.

Late May, president Pritchard shows up wanting a peace/military treaty with QEIII/SEM.
SEM parliament ratifies followed by RH congress.
RHN POW's released probably took place shortly after SEM parliament ratified treaty in early June.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun May 07, 2017 1:03 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

saber964 wrote:Everyone is overlooking one important thing regarding SLN POW's. The biggest is all the former POW camps for RHN POW's, they didn't exactly bulldoze them into the ground. Knowing that the SLN was on the way. Remember the timeline.

Late May, president Pritchard shows up wanting a peace/military treaty with QEIII/SEM.
SEM parliament ratifies followed by RH congress.
RHN POW's released probably took place shortly after SEM parliament ratified treaty in early June.


The problem with that is still that the total Havenite prisoners is utterly dwarfed by the survivors of Raging Justice, and eventually future prisoners when the SLN tries to do commerce raiding.

Unless they over-populated the camps, which is A Bad Idea. You want POW camps to be small enough populations that small groups can't fade into the background, planning a breakout, but large enough you have efficient guard:prisoner ratios. I believe the Havenite camp Henke temporarily stayed at would only have been about 200-300 range, on an island, which sounds pretty good.

The prisoner camps on Cerberus/Hell were also generally in the low couple hundred range, not on islands, but with the inedible flora & fauna you could put more camps into a given area than you could with say Manticore, Sphinx, Gryphon or Haven.

Edit: :Oops:, after looking in IEH/EoH for a passage I remember Honor even grudingly admitting the prison system on Hell was good, it was just how StateSec acted that made it bad, it appears I underestimated camp numbers. 2500 prisoners per camp, not my above guesstimate. Still vastly lower than dropping a quarter million prisoners into one camp.
Last edited by Somtaaw on Sun May 07, 2017 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun May 07, 2017 1:16 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

Castenea wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Between those two little quotes, let's also examine one critical term... "prisoner of war". As we know, Tsang and by extension the Mandarins, don't even have a declaration of war. So both Crandall's attacks, and Filareta's Raging Justice were, essentially pirate attacks writ large, and that's in the books too. The POW label is a courtesy that Manticore has chosen to extend, but is under zero obligation and everyone inside and out of the League understands that. But Manticore doesn't have to follow every rule of the Deneb Accords (which are presumably very similar to the Geneva Convention's Rules of War)



Manticore dropping POW's on Sphinx or Gryphon is slightly eyebrow raising, but it's certainly not the brutality we saw out of StateSec, and can expect from OFS/Gendarmes. If the Sollies are going to complain on Split where they were essentially put on tropical paradise; with hurricane season months away, they're going to absolutely HOWL bloody murder no matter where you put them.

Since they'll complain no matter where you imprison them, may as well just drop them on Gryphon. Higher than Terra gravity, energetic weather, and no local hexapuma's to keep from munching the prisoners. Sphinx just has too many threats, from peak bears & hexapuma's, and we also know they have snakes with legs but do not know whether those are poisonous snakes. Too many animal threats on Sphinx, and while it might be possible to convince some treecats to "watch over" prisoners, it's inefficient compared to a similar prisoner camp on Gryphon would be, despite the weather.
I will agree with you and add a blunt comment, while you may not need (or be able) to follow the treaties for treatment of POWs to the letter, deliberate mistreatment of POWs is a path you do not want to start down. I.E. putting them on Gryphon in tents and then expecting them to build their own barracks, is rough, but arguably acceptable. Putting them through what happened on Cerberus would be several steps too far.



Precisely, I am not suggesting Manticore is going to willfully, and deliberately "pull a StateSec", but there's putting your POW camps on less-than-paradise locations, and then there's putting them in Guantanamo Bay.

The SLN is gonna complain regardless, as my post showed on Spindle they were literally in tropical paradises, just not with 5-star hotels, and the ranking officer was acting as if they had StateSec in charge.

Heck, you could be really mean, and put the SLN prisoners on San Martin with it's what, 2+ gravity and air so thick you can only live on the mountains? That'd be even worse than putting them in camps on Gryphon, and it's still proper treatment of POW's.

You're not actively, or through inaction, causing harm to the POW's.
You are housing and feeding them.
You are protecting them from natural threats.


All the while, they are still prisoners, even Solly enlisted who probably didn't want to go attack Manticore at all.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun May 07, 2017 3:14 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Somtaaw wrote:You want POW camps to be small enough populations that small groups can't fade into the background, planning a breakout, but large enough you have efficient guard:prisoner ratios.


That would be the main advantage of using the Sphinx Outback -- Treecat Guards.

Treecats aren't mind-readers, but hiding the possibility of escape from Empaths would be orders of magnitude harder than hiding a tunnel complex from Sgt Shultz.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun May 07, 2017 4:31 am

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

Weird Harold wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:You want POW camps to be small enough populations that small groups can't fade into the background, planning a breakout, but large enough you have efficient guard:prisoner ratios.


That would be the main advantage of using the Sphinx Outback -- Treecat Guards.

Treecats aren't mind-readers, but hiding the possibility of escape from Empaths would be orders of magnitude harder than hiding a tunnel complex from Sgt Shultz.


You would have to rotate the 'cat guards quite frequently, the constitutional arrogance of SL spacers and their resentment at being prisoners would batter the minds of the 'cats.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by munroburton   » Sun May 07, 2017 6:56 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

George J. Smith wrote:You would have to rotate the 'cat guards quite frequently, the constitutional arrogance of SL spacers and their resentment at being prisoners would batter the minds of the 'cats.


Now, now. Not all Sollies are unspeakably arrogant. Just the ones in charge. And not all of them either. The senior SLN PoWs are being whiny bitches because they're struggling to deal with their own issues - they were the one who gave the order to surrender scores of Solarian dreadnoughts and then had Manticoran Marines marching onto their bridges to take them away.

The rest are just going to be human beings trapped in an unfortunate situation. Those who are prisoners know they just survived roughly 1 in 2 odds of getting killed.

I think treecat guards are unnecessary. Just find an island roughly the size and isolation of Madagascar or New Zealand, remove all airborne and waterborne transports and leave it to the SLN to maintain internal order. Roughly 10% of their numbers are Marines, after all. Escape - or uprising - attempts are very unlikely to get far in those circumstances.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by saber964   » Sun May 07, 2017 12:18 pm

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2423
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

Somtaaw wrote:
saber964 wrote:Everyone is overlooking one important thing regarding SLN POW's. The biggest is all the former POW camps for RHN POW's, they didn't exactly bulldoze them into the ground. Knowing that the SLN was on the way. Remember the timeline.

Late May, president Pritchard shows up wanting a peace/military treaty with QEIII/SEM.
SEM parliament ratifies followed by RH congress.
RHN POW's released probably took place shortly after SEM parliament ratified treaty in early June.


The problem with that is still that the total Havenite prisoners is utterly dwarfed by the survivors of Raging Justice, and eventually future prisoners when the SLN tries to do commerce raiding.

Unless they over-populated the camps, which is A Bad Idea. You want POW camps to be small enough populations that small groups can't fade into the background, planning a breakout, but large enough you have efficient guard:prisoner ratios. I believe the Havenite camp Henke temporarily stayed at would only have been about 200-300 range, on an island, which sounds pretty good.

The prisoner camps on Cerberus/Hell were also generally in the low couple hundred range, not on islands, but with the inedible flora & fauna you could put more camps into a given area than you could with say Manticore, Sphinx, Gryphon or Haven.

Edit: :Oops:, after looking in IEH/EoH for a passage I remember Honor even grudingly admitting the prison system on Hell was good, it was just how StateSec acted that made it bad, it appears I underestimated camp numbers. 2500 prisoners per camp, not my above guesstimate. Still vastly lower than dropping a quarter million prisoners into one camp.



True on the number of SLN versus RHN POW, but they have enough for about 1/3 of the SLN POW. WIA Go down first followed by most of the senior officers and enlisted and use the SD's as temporary prison hulls until New POW camps can be built
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun May 07, 2017 12:46 pm

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

saber964 wrote:True on the number of SLN versus RHN POW, but they have enough for about 1/3 of the SLN POW. WIA Go down first followed by most of the senior officers and enlisted and use the SD's as temporary prison hulls until New POW camps can be built


How much work would be required to turn the SDs into prison hulls?

The space age version of

Spiking the guns
Disabling the rudders
Removing the main sails
Remove the cutters

In other words a lot of work, but the 2nd best use of the SDs, (the 1st being for target practice and boarding party training)
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by The E   » Sun May 07, 2017 1:11 pm

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2683
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

George J. Smith wrote:How much work would be required to turn the SDs into prison hulls?

The space age version of

Spiking the guns
Disabling the rudders
Removing the main sails
Remove the cutters

In other words a lot of work, but the 2nd best use of the SDs, (the 1st being for target practice and boarding party training)


More than would be required to shuttle the crews to a suitably remote location on a nearby habitable planet.
Top
Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Sun May 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5060
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

The E wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:How much work would be required to turn the SDs into prison hulls?

The space age version of

Spiking the guns
Disabling the rudders
Removing the main sails
Remove the cutters

In other words a lot of work, but the 2nd best use of the SDs, (the 1st being for target practice and boarding party training)


More than would be required to shuttle the crews to a suitably remote location on a nearby habitable planet.


However, Prison Hulks are the one use approved by David. He mentions it in the post from which I took my signature.

Personally I think it would be too much effort to safe them from the former crews and still have them produce life support, station keeping, and power - Especially when the prisoners are them people who have been maintaining them for years and know all their secrets. It just seems safer and easier to build bunks in the equivalent of spacegoing modular containers which have bolt on Environmental systems if the requirement is to keep them in space.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top

Return to Honorverse