Reserve destruction

Destruction of the reserve fleet would not be that useful, as currently those ships are useless and out of date. The thing is it would increase the damage to the league reputation, with out slaughtering people. My advice would be to target the slips and shipyards, that service and contain the mothballed ships. So their logistics and infrastructure is damaged, but they retain most of the reserve likely damaged, still to expensive to replace or repair.

I wonder what is the likely hood the alignment has rigged those ships to blow, while primitive, would they risk militar gear being spread out.

SYED wrote:Destruction of the reserve fleet would not be that useful, as currently those ships are useless and out of date. The thing is it would increase the damage to the league reputation, with out slaughtering people. My advice would be to target the slips and shipyards, that service and contain the mothballed ships. So their logistics and infrastructure is damaged, but they retain most of the reserve likely damaged, still to expensive to replace or repair.

I wonder what is the likely hood the alignment has rigged those ships to blow, while primitive, would they risk militar gear being spread out.

If you remove the GA navies from the equation, any of those antiquated SDs is a force to be reckoned with - even the one with the least upgrades and half stripped for part to keep it's sister working. In my mind, the Malign will actually foster a mad dash for these vessels because it promotes diplomatic insanity and instability - just what it is looking for so the RF can pick up the pieces.

If you look at the Battletech universe, there was a time when any power who had a capitol ship would have destabilized the status quo. This followed a period when each power made a run for every military advantage they could get and did everything in their power to deny it to their neighbors. And this appears to be the future of the Honorverse - A mad grab for whatever will protect you and forget your neighbor's needs.

So, No, I don't think the Malign will destroy them in advance - make sure their friends get a larger then normal portion, maybe, but not destroy them.

Theemile wrote:If you remove the GA navies from the equation, any of those antiquated SDs is a force to be reckoned with - even the one with the least upgrades and half stripped for part to keep it's sister working.

Eh. Not really. I still think the SLN SDs are a solution in search of a problem in the Honorverse.

If you already have wallers? You already have better wallers than SLN SDs, an enemy would need a huge number of them to threaten you, and no conceivable entity in the Honorverse has the ability to create that level of trained manpower quickly (this is definitely true in the Honorverse, however illogical it might seem to modern sensibilities).

If you don't already have wallers? You almost certainly do not have the infrastructure needed to support them, and trying to do so would just be a resource sink. If you decide that you do in fact need a waller-level navy, it's going to take years to train the people to man it, so you can afford to spend those years building something better than SLN SDs.

And it seems quite likely to me that roughly Moriarity-level (probably worse missiles, but better electronics) system defense pod/fort networks (which will make mincemeat of any conceivable fleet of SLN SDs) will become widely available soon. They're not that hard to make, and are very effective.

drothgery wrote:
If you already have wallers?

If you don't already have wallers? You almost certainly do not have the infrastructure needed to support them

If you already have wallers, you need more as you have friends.

If you do not, then current infrastructure does not matter, as you soon will be a slave anyways. At least if you ATTAIN, you can procure, before they all fail due to lack of maintenance. After all, if you want to remain free you have to PROCURE said infrastructure anyways.

SYED wrote:Destruction of the reserve fleet would not be that useful, as currently those ships are useless and out of date. The thing is it would increase the damage to the league reputation, with out slaughtering people. My advice would be to target the slips and shipyards, that service and contain the mothballed ships. So their logistics and infrastructure is damaged, but they retain most of the reserve likely damaged, still to expensive to replace or repair.

I wonder what is the likely hood the alignment has rigged those ships to blow, while primitive, would they risk militar gear being spread out.

Seems to me a two-edged sword.

We all have agreed that the GA does not want to rally the SLN troops -- to cause the League member states to coalesce. The GA wants them in secede mode.

Does the member states know how totally useless the SLN ships are, have they been informed? Yet, if their reserve fleet is destroyed by the GA, they will certainly be informed of that -- of how needlessly aggressive the GA is; therefore a need to fund, build and avenge. But most importantly, to coalesce.

drothgery wrote:If you already have wallers? You already have better wallers than SLN SDs, an enemy would need a huge number of them to threaten you, and no conceivable entity in the Honorverse has the ability to create that level of trained manpower quickly (this is definitely true in the Honorverse, however illogical it might seem to modern sensibilities).

Eh, not really. Just because Manticore and Haven (plus the various allied powers like Anderman, Grayson, and we can say places like Zanzibar and other former Anti-Haven Alliance) have absolutely fantastic wallers, and more importantly the weapon systems aboard them, does not mean everybody with a waller does.


The Solarian League Navy was something everybody, including Manticore, had thoughts to copy. After all, not only was it the biggest, it was the most effective... in theory anyways. Then along came a young man named Roger Winton, who had two absolutely crazy ideas. The first was the Haven had gone conquistador, and the second was that it was possible for Manticore to develop weapons better than those belonging to the League.

Fast forward a few decades, and Manticore does indeed have those better weapons. And by extension due to the war, and only because of that war with Haven, were those weapons developed, and with cause-effect made Haven create it's own systems.


But like I said, before I started rambling, just because they have better weapons, doesn't mean that other star systems are also armed with weapons that allow heavy cruisers to take out entire fleets of SLN superdreadnoughts, ala Battle of Spindle. As the Mandarins expressed right in the last chapter or two of one of the latter books.... they can't actually attack and force Manticore or Beowulf to submit to the League's will. But they CAN force any other systems with similar thoughts that aren't allied with Manticore.


And if those independant star systems are using for all intents, knock-off SLN Scientist class superdreadnoughts, but only has a few (anything less than 50), than an SLN fleet dropping out of hyper with a few hundred Scientists will crush them.



So as long as the SLN Reserve Fleet is sitting in drydock, the second the cracks turn into full blown fragmentation, and successions will cause a wildfire of seizures. Those systems fortunate enough to have Reserve drydocks in their own systems will be forced to scramble to de-mothball and crew those monsters to prevent other systems from stealing them first.

Somtaaw wrote:

drothgery wrote:If you already have wallers? You already have better wallers than SLN SDs, an enemy would need a huge number of them to threaten you, and no conceivable entity in the Honorverse has the ability to create that level of trained manpower quickly (this is definitely true in the Honorverse, however illogical it might seem to modern sensibilities).

Eh, not really. Just because Manticore and Haven (plus the various allied powers like Anderman, Grayson, and we can say places like Zanzibar and other former Anti-Haven Alliance) have absolutely fantastic wallers, and more importantly the weapon systems aboard them, does not mean everybody with a waller does.


The Solarian League Navy was something everybody, including Manticore, had thoughts to copy. After all, not only was it the biggest, it was the most effective... in theory anyways. Then along came a young man named Roger Winton, who had two absolutely crazy ideas. The first was the Haven had gone conquistador, and the second was that it was possible for Manticore to develop weapons better than those belonging to the League.

Fast forward a few decades, and Manticore does indeed have those better weapons. And by extension due to the war, and only because of that war with Haven, were those weapons developed, and with cause-effect made Haven create it's own systems.


But like I said, before I started rambling, just because they have better weapons, doesn't mean that other star systems are also armed with weapons that allow heavy cruisers to take out entire fleets of SLN superdreadnoughts, ala Battle of Spindle. As the Mandarins expressed right in the last chapter or two of one of the latter books.... they can't actually attack and force Manticore or Beowulf to submit to the League's will. But they CAN force any other systems with similar thoughts that aren't allied with Manticore.


And if those independant star systems are using for all intents, knock-off SLN Scientist class superdreadnoughts, but only has a few (anything less than 50), than an SLN fleet dropping out of hyper with a few hundred Scientists will crush them.



So as long as the SLN Reserve Fleet is sitting in drydock, the second the cracks turn into full blown fragmentation, and successions will cause a wildfire of seizures. Those systems fortunate enough to have Reserve drydocks in their own systems will be forced to scramble to de-mothball and crew those monsters to prevent other systems from stealing them first.

Thanks Somtaaw, that was my point, Anyone without wallers will be looking for anything to protect themselves - and 1 bad waller is better than no waller. And everyone's worst fear won't be Manticore 1000 light years away with 1000 advanced wallers, it's their neighbor 2 light years away who just managed to convince a BC squadron to become their new SDF.

They are not an answer for the Solarian League or any other major power, and the SLN (and the powers that be) knows it. But in a post Solarian League universe, Any weapon will be will be preferable to no weapon.

In this nightmare scenario, no one is worried about maintenance problems in 2 years, when not having an SD might mean you are not around in 2 years to worry about it or anything else.

Somtaaw wrote:But like I said, before I started rambling, just because they have better weapons, doesn't mean that other star systems are also armed with weapons that allow heavy cruisers to take out entire fleets of SLN superdreadnoughts, ala Battle of Spindle. ...

There is a BIG gap between "better than the SLN" and "Heavy Crusies that can take out entire fleets." There is also a wide variation in the military/technological capabilities of League Members.

Member system with powerful SDFs who cared enough to send observers to the "Haven Sector Wars" will have made changes in ships and training based on Observer reports. The changes may be as simple and incremental as the reprogramming of electronic counter-measures to get the most out of SLN systems done by the People's Navy In Exile, to the multi-stage Cataphracts developed by the Malign/Technodyne. Small changes in equipment and training that should make a System Defense Force that employs even SLN standard Scientist-class SDs two to ten times better than regular SLN task forces.

If they employ their own designs in ships, ECM or missiles, a few SDFs (like the Renaissance Factor's combined fleet) might well be ten to twenty times better than the SLN (as compared to the GA being 50-100 times better.)

There are undoubtedly some League members who would want an SD or ten from the SLN reserve, but they mostly wouldn't have the expertise to utilize them effectively or maintain them; They wouldn't know how ineffective, inefficient, and "under-gunned" they are against even competently handled ships of similar technology levels.

All things considered, a ship from the SLN reserve would probably be a negative asset to any system that doesn't already employ SDs and a Null asset to any SDFs that do employ SLN-grade SDs.

Weird Harold wrote:
There is a BIG gap between "better than the SLN" and "Heavy Crusies that can take out entire fleets." There is also a wide variation in the military/technological capabilities of League Members.

Member system with powerful SDFs who cared enough to send observers to the "Haven Sector Wars" will have made changes in ships and training based on Observer reports. The changes may be as simple and incremental as the reprogramming of electronic counter-measures to get the most out of SLN systems done by the People's Navy In Exile, to the multi-stage Cataphracts developed by the Malign/Technodyne. Small changes in equipment and training that should make a System Defense Force that employs even SLN standard Scientist-class SDs two to ten times better than regular SLN task forces.

If they employ their own designs in ships, ECM or missiles, a few SDFs (like the Renaissance Factor's combined fleet) might well be ten to twenty times better than the SLN (as compared to the GA being 50-100 times better.)

We've seen no textevi yet that any SDF outside of Beowulf, have any ships better than the SLN as a whole. If anything, they've simply copied the SLN as a whole, and substituted quantity for quality ships.

I also disagree that even the Solarian League member states that sent observers will have anything more than perhaps a 10-15% edge over standard SLN units. Kind of the same issue for SDF's as the League right now.... they probably have huge SDF's (of cruisers anyways), but they probably have a whole bunch of older ships that they have to break up and reclaim as they try and modernize their units. And since the Mandarins are lying in every way possible, even the systems that have sent observers are going to be unsure exactly how much better Manticoran/Havenite ships are over standard SLN/SDF ships.

Weird Harold wrote:There are undoubtedly some League members who would want an SD or ten from the SLN reserve, but they mostly wouldn't have the expertise to utilize them effectively or maintain them

The point Theemile and I are making, is that IF there is a mad rush to steal the superdreadnoughts from the reserve, nobody is going to care about maintenance issues, they just want the ships to cover immediate needs. If the League broke up, they're going to want any waller they can steal to defend from the neighbour who just might want to restart a conflict from centuries ago that was only ended because both sides joined the League.

Weird Harold wrote:They wouldn't know how ineffective, inefficient, and "under-gunned" they are against even competently handled ships of similar technology levels.

Everybody in the League outside of Frontier Fleet, and OFS naval units have practically no experience with naval issues, so whether a former League member state steals a whole fleet worth of SLN Reserve superdreadnoughts or not, they haven't actually exercised command as anything more than glorified Coast Guard in T-centuries.

We've got a rather big lacking in any textev, but from the general sound of it, I think the only League member state that actually kept an navy of any power was Beowulf. And it wasn't just because they had the Manticore wormhole to guard, but because they've spent all that time operating in anti-Mesa operations.

Lack of evidence, however, does not mean there hasn't, but the way the Mandarins, and Fleet Admiral Tsang reacted to the Beowulf SDF having "hidden" their upgrades from general SLN deployment, would also imply anyone else with upgrades have kept them underwraps too. Excluding the Renaissance Factor states who probably have a few naval upgrades.... who else other than Beowulf had a need for better naval units?

The Solarian League was the galaxy's 800-lb gorilla. Nobody could endanger any member state, or last long if they enraged it. Then along comes Manticore, and wipes the floor with multiple engagements, and every solar system is going to panic and not think. They won't care about expenses, they're just going to want ships, any ships to guard themselves.

Somtaaw wrote:I also disagree that even the Solarian League member states that sent observers will have anything more than perhaps a 10-15% edge over standard SLN units.

A 10-15% edge in hardware would likely mean a much bigger difference in outcomes where forces are equal. The big advantage that SDFs have from direct observation by observers would be in training and tactics. The SLN training exercise are expressly described as being rigged and unrealistic; they are also described as infrequent.

ANY training exercises with some degree of realistic parameters will produce an advantage over the SLN far out of proportion to the effort expended.

Also, the gulf between SLN tech and current GA tech is irrelevant if the opponent is the SLN trying to prevent or reverse a secession. A SLN task force commander who subscribes to your view of SDF capabilities is going to be rudely surprised when the SDF commander subscribes to my view.

Essentially, anywhere in the Solarian League forces are going to be evenly matched -- +/- 10% -- and training and tactics are going to determine the winner. The SLN is going to come out on the short end of a very dirty stick. Anyone who starts from scratch to acquire and deploy reserve SDs is going to be the SLN's whipping boy, because the SLN at least has the familiarity with the ships to repair and employ them without shooting themselves in the foot. (accompanying ships are in slightly more danger than any given ship's foot. )

Somtaaw wrote:The point Theemile and I are making, is that IF there is a mad rush to steal the superdreadnoughts from the reserve, nobody is going to care about maintenance issues, they just want the ships to cover immediate needs.

If the ships are coming from the reserve, they had better care about maintenance! They are NOT going to get an unmaintained deathtrap out of the boneyard without at least minimal maintenance. And that's without even replacing the bits and pieces cannibalized for fleet repairs or sold off on the black market.

Abigail Hearns expressed her disgust with SLN maintenance during her SAR excursion into a defeated SLN SD. That was a SLN ship on active service; how much worse will even the best of the SLN reserve ships be?