The 5 Most Dangerous Things You Will Hear in the Navy:

Fireflair wrote:And the sad thing is, it's very true. Reality versus the arm chair theory.

Except it is often an excuse to not do things safely. "You don't have to lock that out, we all know you are working on it."

Hello,

in Germany we say:
if you work right along the instructions, you are on strike.

dscott8 wrote:You all forgot the most basic, common and dangerous one....

"Hellll-ooooooh, Sailor!" <wink>

Or, as it appears as a translation of a motto of the French Navy :-

"To the water! Now's the time"
(A l'eau ! C'est l'heure)

kzt wrote:

Fireflair wrote:And the sad thing is, it's very true. Reality versus the arm chair theory.

Except it is often an excuse to not do things safely. "You don't have to lock that out, we all know you are working on it."

That sounds excessively scary when you are working in an environment that contains electrical hazards, toxic/flammable/suffocating gasses, high pressure lines, heavy machinery, radiation hazards and confined spaces.

So people don't turn things off when performing maintenance on them in situations where some dunderhead in another room can potentially kill them by pushing a button? From a safety perspective it's horrifying.

The US Navy's policy is to troubleshoot things completely de-energized (potential energy from springs, weights, coils, capacitors, hydraulic or pneumatic systems all removed, isolated and locked out) when-ever possible. Which reads 99% of the time.

The simple truth is that most electrical problems can isolated far faster by live checks, which is what most of the commercial/industrial companies allow for. With appropriate safety precautions.

What I was thinking of about school versus fleet was more along the lines of all the tricks and gimmicks you learn. Ways to disconnect things, isolate or align them that aren't taught in the schools. Things that are often safe, but not by the book.

More over (And it's a personal pet peeve of mine because I think the US Navy has gotten way too focused on paperwork and documentation vice getting things done, since they haven't been in a real combat environment in decades), in a real combat situation, you won't have time for the rigmarole that is the Navy's current tag out program. By introducing so many safety precautions and protections, it discourages people from engaging their brains and thinking. Too many electricians that worked for me could read a manual and follow directions perfectly. But as soon as they had to deviate, they were lost. Not just technically, but their training told them to rely on those manuals instead of common sense and good thought processes.

So when things go in the crapper, your sub or ship is in extremis, where will you have the three hours to find prints, prove isolations through four different people, hang a bunch of tags, before finally getting to work? I don't think the Old Man is going to accept, in the middle of casualty situation: 'I need to get the prints before I can reconnect the broken wires, sir.'

Yes, there are planned expediencies to try and get around this. Redundancies to prevent having to do this. But in the final calculus, Johny on the spot with a quick thinking mind and steady hands who knows to reconnect those two wires, regardless of the voltage on them might be the one who saves the day. ORM (Operational Risk Management) isn't just about keeping you safe all the time, but assessing the risk and taking the lowest risk, most gain steps in the right situation.

Sorry... Off my soap box now.

Fireflair wrote:
The simple truth is that most electrical problems can isolated far faster by live checks, which is what most of the commercial/industrial companies allow for. With appropriate safety precautions.

What I was thinking of about school versus fleet was more along the lines of all the tricks and gimmicks you learn. Ways to disconnect things, isolate or align them that aren't taught in the schools. Things that are often safe, but not by the book.

Being semi-retired (still called in when they get stuck) from keeping the machinery in a factory working, I can see both sides. My pet peeve is when I don't know the machine well and the prints don't match the machine

Tag out is needed, but not always. The critical situation is when the controller is away (in space or time) from the work. Although sometimes it is needed keep some silly's fingers off the buttons

Fireflair wrote:The US Navy's policy is to troubleshoot things completely de-energized (potential energy from springs, weights, coils, capacitors, hydraulic or pneumatic systems all removed, isolated and locked out) when-ever possible. Which reads 99% of the time.

The simple truth is that most electrical problems can isolated far faster by live checks, which is what most of the commercial/industrial companies allow for. With appropriate safety precautions.

What I was thinking of about school versus fleet was more along the lines of all the tricks and gimmicks you learn. Ways to disconnect things, isolate or align them that aren't taught in the schools. Things that are often safe, but not by the book.

More over (And it's a personal pet peeve of mine because I think the US Navy has gotten way too focused on paperwork and documentation vice getting things done, since they haven't been in a real combat environment in decades), in a real combat situation, you won't have time for the rigmarole that is the Navy's current tag out program. By introducing so many safety precautions and protections, it discourages people from engaging their brains and thinking. Too many electricians that worked for me could read a manual and follow directions perfectly. But as soon as they had to deviate, they were lost. Not just technically, but their training told them to rely on those manuals instead of common sense and good thought processes.

So when things go in the crapper, your sub or ship is in extremis, where will you have the three hours to find prints, prove isolations through four different people, hang a bunch of tags, before finally getting to work? I don't think the Old Man is going to accept, in the middle of casualty situation: 'I need to get the prints before I can reconnect the broken wires, sir.'

Yes, there are planned expediencies to try and get around this. Redundancies to prevent having to do this. But in the final calculus, Johny on the spot with a quick thinking mind and steady hands who knows to reconnect those two wires, regardless of the voltage on them might be the one who saves the day. ORM (Operational Risk Management) isn't just about keeping you safe all the time, but assessing the risk and taking the lowest risk, most gain steps in the right situation.

Sorry... Off my soap box now.

Translating to that the schools are not teaching what is actually needed(or not enough).

Don't all branches have a similar sentiment of "It's good enough for the (Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force)"? Never mind spec.

cthia wrote:Don't all branches have a similar sentiment of "It's good enough for the (Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force)"? Never mind spec.

Hmm.. Good enough for government work?

cthia wrote:Don't all branches have a similar sentiment of "It's good enough for the (Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force)"? Never mind spec.

The real concept is there's a right way a wrong way and the (place branch name here) way.