Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: penny, tlb and 18 guests

Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:57 pm

HB of CJ
Captain of the List

Posts: 707
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: 43N, 123W Kinda

Commercial Starship Construction In The Honorverse. Consider the various sized freighters. Not warships. How are such starships built? Steel plates welded together? Foamed light metals? Or are the ship hulls actually "grown" in huge nanoteck vats?

Just how incredibly expensive are these commercial bottoms? Expected life span? Operating costs? Hired bean counters? I would like to explore parallels in the Honorverse with todays maritime ship construction industries and perhaps heavy trucking.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by kzt   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:51 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11357
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Productive lifetime is hundreds of years. There haven't been any major improvements to mainstream freighter tech in many hundreds of years iirc.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by niethil   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:58 pm

niethil
Commander

Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:46 pm

As far as I remember, hulls can be :
1) riveted.
2) welded.
3) grown with nanotech.

Grayson space industry employed rivets if I am not mistaken before the alliance brought Manticoran nanotech. But I also think Honor made a remark about their using electric ar welding where Manticore used chemical catalysis.

So we might infer that sections of the hull are grown with nanotech and then welded together with chemical catalysis. This would be similar to how current ships can be built section by section to facilitate the installation of internal organs, and then joined by welding the different sections. Probably the number of sections would depend on the complexity of the design : warships, with their compartmented, cramped interior would make section by section building more interesting, and cargo ships with big, hollow hulls could be grown in on piece.

There might be other relevant text which I don't remember though. There might be something at the beginning of ART (?), when Lacoon 2 get-back-home-now orders hit Manticoran merchantmen, regarding costs.
-------------
'Oh, oh' he said in English. Evidently, he had completely mastered that language.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by Relax   » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:20 pm

Relax
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3106
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 pm

The major limitation to 3d printing today is the need for a giant vacuum chamber in which to grow the product and house the machine along with the material. Makes it very expensive.

If you are already in space... No need for the vacuum chamber for 3d printing. In short, every ship should be 3d printed in the Honorverse timeframe. Could already do so today if we were building in space. For sure we could do so if using Titanium.

For instance if we were rebuilding the International space station, we would first launch a 3d printing machine and then bulk titanium powder that would automatically attach itself to the machine to provide a framework for all of the systems. OF course would not be very helpful as all hte systems which require the majority of the cost and installation manhours could not be printed making this a slower proposition than fully made capsules in earth gravity.

No need for welding, riveting, or nanotech growing of any type. The only question is how many dissimilar materials one can "print". Should be able to print insulated wires for instance. But this gets back to dissimilar materials making adhesion extremely difficult.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:36 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8356
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

niethil wrote:As far as I remember, hulls can be :
1) riveted.
2) welded.
3) grown with nanotech.

Grayson space industry employed rivets if I am not mistaken before the alliance brought Manticoran nanotech. But I also think Honor made a remark about their using electric ar welding where Manticore used chemical catalysis.

So we might infer that sections of the hull are grown with nanotech and then welded together with chemical catalysis.
The only specific mention of nano-tech grown material that I recall offhand is the armor on 'modern' (late pre-war to current) RMN warships.

That tends to imply to me that it's still a very limited use and probably too expensive and finicky for construction of bulk hull plate -- just reserved for where the seamless and complexely layered structure you can achieve is worth it; in hull armor desited to dissipate and disrupt stupidly powerful energy weapons.


So I suspect the hull plating is formed in processes that wouldn't appear so unfamiliar to us today.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by HungryKing   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:20 am

HungryKing
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 369
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:43 pm

Actually Weber has stated that by and large the Honorverse is a nanotech manufacturing setting, it is just that they do not grow large things with it, traditionally. The outer hull, even for civilian vessels, is usually coated with a layer of some species of doped silcon carbide, which probably doesn't require nanotech for the civilian version. The primary framing members are all made from battle steel, which is a nanotech product as for the rest of the hull, it is probably whatever is cheap and meets the engineering requirements. We know the primary composition of a Solarian tramp freighter is steel though.
As for rivets, that was Masada. Grayson used arc welding, the 'modern' technique is 'chem catalyst' which might nanotech or a product thereof.
Jonathan_S wrote:
niethil wrote:As far as I remember, hulls can be :
1) riveted.
2) welded.
3) grown with nanotech.

Grayson space industry employed rivets if I am not mistaken before the alliance brought Manticoran nanotech. But I also think Honor made a remark about their using electric ar welding where Manticore used chemical catalysis.

So we might infer that sections of the hull are grown with nanotech and then welded together with chemical catalysis.
The only specific mention of nano-tech grown material that I recall offhand is the armor on 'modern' (late pre-war to current) RMN warships.

That tends to imply to me that it's still a very limited use and probably too expensive and finicky for construction of bulk hull plate -- just reserved for where the seamless and complexely layered structure you can achieve is worth it; in hull armor desited to dissipate and disrupt stupidly powerful energy weapons.


So I suspect the hull plating is formed in processes that wouldn't appear so unfamiliar to us today.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by Vince   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:21 pm

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

HungryKing wrote:Actually Weber has stated that by and large the Honorverse is a nanotech manufacturing setting, it is just that they do not grow large things with it, traditionally. The outer hull, even for civilian vessels, is usually coated with a layer of some species of doped silcon carbide, which probably doesn't require nanotech for the civilian version. The primary framing members are all made from battle steel, which is a nanotech product as for the rest of the hull, it is probably whatever is cheap and meets the engineering requirements. We know the primary composition of a Solarian tramp freighter is steel though.
As for rivets, that was Masada. Grayson used arc welding, the 'modern' technique is 'chem catalyst' which might nanotech or a product thereof.

Grayson used whatever worked for them within the limits of their tech base. When Fearless first arrived at Grayson with her convoy:
The Honor of the Queen, Chapter 5 wrote:Grayson looked oddly patchy in the visual display as Fearless and her brood settled into their parking orbit, and Honor had been amazed on the trip in-system by the scale of Grayson’s spaceborne industry. For a technically backward system, Yeltsin’s Star boasted an amazing number of bulk carriers and processing ships. None of them appeared hyper capable, and the largest massed barely a million tons, but they were everywhere, and some of the orbital structures circling Grayson itself were at least a third the size of Hephaestus or Vulcan back home. No doubt the scale of the orbital construction projects also explained the plethora of energy sources and drive signatures plying between Grayson and the local asteroid belt, but the sheer numbers of them still came as a shock.
Fearless cut her wedge as Chief Killian signaled “done with engines” and station-keeping thrusters took over, and Honor frowned over her displays while a corner of her mind monitored the flow of communications between the planetary authorities and Admiral Courvosier’s staff on the heavy cruiser’s flag bridge. Everything she saw only seemed to underscore the strange—to Manticoran eyes, at least—dichotomy between the almost incredible energy of Grayson’s activities and the crudity with which they were carried out.
Old-fashioned electric arc and laser welders glared and sputtered, despite the wastefulness of such primitive, energy-intensive techniques compared to modern chem-catalyst welders. Hard-suited construction crews heaved massive frame members around, overcoming mass and momentum by brute muscle power without the tractor/counter-grav exo-suits Manticoran workers would have used as a matter of course, and it took her a while to realize (and even longer to accept) that some of them were using rivet guns. The local orbital power receptors were huge and clumsy and looked none too efficient, and her sensors said at least half the structures out there were using fission power plants! Fission plants weren’t just old-fashioned; they were dangerous technical antiques, and their presence baffled her. The original Church of Humanity’s colony ship had used fusion power, so why were the colonists’ descendants using fission power nine hundred years later?
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:31 am

HB of CJ
Captain of the List

Posts: 707
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: 43N, 123W Kinda

Thank you! Excellent answers everybody. What ever way is used to build huge open commercial cargo ships, the method must work well enough to withstand the brutal acceleration provided by the gravity pinching. Things would have to be well built indeed to withstand all those gees. I am thinking of what happens if the compensators fail. HB
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:02 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8356
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

HB of CJ wrote:Thank you! Excellent answers everybody. What ever way is used to build huge open commercial cargo ships, the method must work well enough to withstand the brutal acceleration provided by the gravity pinching. Things would have to be well built indeed to withstand all those gees. I am thinking of what happens if the compensators fail. HB

It's also possible that Grayson ships didn't survive if their compensator failed.

There's not much reason to make that a design goal, given how rare and catastrophic the event is - and I can't think of any pre-alliance Grayson ships we've seen or heard about compensator failure on. If the ship is a write-off anyway do you really care if the riveted internal structure comes apart?
Top
Re: Starship Construction Techniques In The Honorverse ...
Post by kzt   » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:12 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11357
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

It's pretty pointless to spend mass and money engineering for an extremely rare failure that will kill everyone on the ship and destroy all the cargo. Particularly when >99% of the time the failure will occur in hyper, which means the chance of the hull being recovered is approximately nil.

It's like requiring that a 747 be able to survive structurally intact if it flies into a skycraper.
Top

Return to Honorverse