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Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)

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Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:11 am

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Given that another thread on this subject went bad in a hurry, but started with an interesting "Honorverse" question, I'd like to restart the thought processes on training standards with an assertion, and see where it goes.

Given the variability of humans in the HonorVerse, [consider Palane and HH compared to Susan Hibson or Iris Babcock, or Hugh Arai, Tomas Martinez or Mateo Gutierrez compared to just about anybody else], it's obvious that brute strength isn't the comparative limiting factor on who joins, who washes out, an who stays. It's also obvious that "smart and willing to be deadly" are core requirements.

So what creates the "low bar" for entry/washout and what separates the accepted into further training from the wannabees, and thence up to "first tier" level in terms of unit fighting skills?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:33 am

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SharkHunter wrote:Given that another thread on this subject went bad in a hurry, but started with an interesting "Honorverse" question, I'd like to restart the thought processes on training standards with an assertion, and see where it goes.

Given the variability of humans in the HonorVerse, [consider Palane and HH compared to Susan Hibson or Iris Babcock, or Hugh Arai, Tomas Martinez or Mateo Gutierrez compared to just about anybody else], it's obvious that brute strength isn't the comparative limiting factor on who joins, who washes out, an who stays. It's also obvious that "smart and willing to be deadly" are core requirements.

So what creates the "low bar" for entry/washout and what separates the accepted into further training from the wannabees, and thence up to "first tier" level in terms of unit fighting skills?

It depends on what you need, I imagine. Someone you're going to put through the full Marine rigor - all that training, all that specialized equipment, where what you need is a few good bipeds... you'll want people that meet very high standards, whatever the set is. Note both the "few" and the "good" there.

For the Army, where equipment per person is less specialized and maybe less expensive, and where transport per person is not so limited, you won't need "good" nearly so much (and the specific dimensions of "good" will vary, too) and you don't want "few" - you want an ARMY! Chances are you're looking for personnel there less suited to intense, aggressive, small-scale combat and more to long-term, routine-plus-sudden-violence rugged police activities. If you're recruiting for the Solarian Gendarmerie, you've got such a need for bodies and such standards for "ruggedness" that reasonably stable, obedient thugs will do. The low bar there is going to be pretty much obedience, a willingness to get assertive with the target population, and no exceptional health issues. For the Royal Manticoran Army, the low bar is a lot higher - it's going to include having no significant chance of creating incidents while you're doing your police work, and an easy technical competence with the gear you've got as force multipliers.

I figure the high strength of various genies (high grav natives particularly) is regarded as a net nice extra among the Marines more than anything else. When it comes to unassisted melee mayhem or brute-force damage control, they've got an edge - and it will come to that only rarely but not never. (Faster reflexes are likely more useful more often, but I imagine those are more widely shared.) In return, they need to eat, eat, eat more, eat often. Their performance will plunge if they can't get their munchies - something that may happen only rarely but not never.
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:12 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
...

I figure the high strength of various genies (high grav natives particularly) is regarded as a net nice extra among the Marines more than anything else. When it comes to unassisted melee mayhem or brute-force damage control, they've got an edge - and it will come to that only rarely but not never. (Faster reflexes are likely more useful more often, but I imagine those are more widely shared.) In return, they need to eat, eat, eat more, eat often. Their performance will plunge if they can't get their munchies - something that may happen only rarely but not never.


This is part of the canon, but that "eat, eat, eat" doesn't work. All that energy going in is eventually going to come out as heat. If Honor Harrington or Thandi Palaine was really eating that much and not gaining weight, they'd have a body temperature in the low 100s. I'll let ol' namelessfly imagine what a uniform to accommodate that would look like.
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:53 am

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--snipping--
JohnRoth wrote: This is part of the canon, but that "eat, eat, eat" doesn't work. All that energy going in is eventually going to come out as heat. If Honor Harrington or Thandi Palaine was really eating that much and not gaining weight, they'd have a body temperature in the low 100s. I'll let ol' namelessfly imagine what a uniform to accommodate that would look like.
I wonder if they might have a higher core temp, and if that would make living on Sphinx easier, etc.

Keep in mind though, Thandi is stated to weigh plus 100 kilos, my guess for Honor has always been in the 80 kilo range at least, which requires more energy burn than a flyweight, plus they are engaged in recreational and training martial arts, keeping their "at rest" metabolisms higher as well. My family (at least on one side) tend to be genetically thin, highly folks with long endurance, but without any "genie mods" to make our bones more high-g resistant and muscles have higher strength/speed.

Plus (bad pun intended) we do know that both HH and Thandi are "hot women". ;-)
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:38 am

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Excellent question and thank you. I think the REALITY of the Honorverse physical and training requirements are a great weakness in the Honorverse story line. Just me. Respectfully.

Since one can not stop human evolution, nor should one want to, I believe that the combat arms in the future will pretty much be like that in WW2. Yes there were small Marines. Also big ones.

But ... and this is important, the weaker smaller stature types were washed out and had no business in combat. For every dinky small guy you could have instead a bigger stronger meaner guy.

But the Honorverse is fiction. Anything goes. For every big strong, nasty dangerous man, you can imagine many women who are for some reason just as good. Very non likely in the real world.

But ... again it is science fiction space opera. As far as the actual education and training levels, I can imagine ... while staying within the Honorverse, most anybody can spin up to speed.

In the novels just about any average woman can some how be trained and meaned up to stand side by side with bigger better men. The books forget about evolution. Men are bigger than women.

But remember, non of it may apply to real world conditions today on planet earth. Equal opportunity rite large sells books. The Author knows this. Slots for everybody would be made available.

This is one of the dangers of reading too much excellent space opera science fiction. I am guilty of this. Easy to transfer what works in the books with real world events. Does not work.

Anyhow, education and training in the books would somehow elevate everybody from whereever they began and somehow make them all equal. Thus a uniform mix of the sexes. It is science fiction.

Respectfully. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:04 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Excellent question and thank you. I think the REALITY of the Honorverse physical and training requirements are a great weakness in the Honorverse story line. Just me. Respectfully.

Since one can not stop human evolution, nor should one want to, I believe that the combat arms in the future will pretty much be like that in WW2. Yes there were small Marines. Also big ones.

But ... and this is important, the weaker smaller stature types were washed out and had no business in combat. For every dinky small guy you could have instead a bigger stronger meaner guy.

But the Honorverse is fiction. Anything goes. For every big strong, nasty dangerous man, you can imagine many women who are for some reason just as good. Very non likely in the real world.

But ... again it is science fiction space opera. As far as the actual education and training levels, I can imagine ... while staying within the Honorverse, most anybody can spin up to speed.

In the novels just about any average woman can some how be trained and meaned up to stand side by side with bigger better men. The books forget about evolution. Men are bigger than women.

But remember, non of it may apply to real world conditions today on planet earth. Equal opportunity rite large sells books. The Author knows this. Slots for everybody would be made available.

This is one of the dangers of reading too much excellent space opera science fiction. I am guilty of this. Easy to transfer what works in the books with real world events. Does not work.

Anyhow, education and training in the books would somehow elevate everybody from whereever they began and somehow make them all equal. Thus a uniform mix of the sexes. It is science fiction.

Respectfully. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)


Do you really mean that Susan Hibson can't kick his arse no matter how big and mean he is in real life? HERESY!!!

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by Relax   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:11 am

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Its the bubble gum :P :shock: :o :D
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by kzt   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:26 am

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Actually, I'm told that big tall guys with bulging muscles have a poor success rate at BUDS. The typical guy who is successful is roughly average size and build, but extremely fit and absolutely will not quit. I know a guy who had a SEAL platoon at a bar in Prescott and the regulars made the mistake of thinking they were a bunch of Embry-Riddle students because they just don't look like what people think a bunch of SEALs look like.
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by Relax   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:46 am

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kzt wrote:Actually, I'm told that big tall guys with bulging muscles have a poor success rate at BUDS. The typical guy who is successful is roughly average size and build, but extremely fit and absolutely will not quit. I know a guy who had a SEAL platoon at a bar in Prescott and the regulars made the mistake of thinking they were a bunch of Embry-Riddle students because they just don't look like what people think a bunch of SEALs look like.

Strength to weight ratio is always key. Especially for endurance. Best endurance athletes in the world are all about 5'10" (Marathon runners)

Knew one guy who failed buds due to stress fractured tibia. Went to demo school instead. So, failing BUDS is not exactly the end for those who fail. Generally they pop back up in other elite military schools.
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Re: Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:10 pm

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--quik snip--
HB of CJ wrote:Excellent question and thank you. I think the REALITY of the Honorverse physical and training requirements are a great weakness in the Honorverse story line. Just me. Respectfully.
...
But the Honorverse is fiction. Anything goes. For every big strong, nasty dangerous man, you can imagine many women who are for some reason just as good. Very non likely in the real world.
...
In the novels just about any average woman can some how be trained and meaned up to stand side by side with bigger better men. The books forget about evolution. Men are bigger than women.
...
Easy to transfer what works in the books with real world events. Does not work.

Anyhow, education and training in the books would somehow elevate everybody from whereever they began and somehow make them all equal. Thus a uniform mix of the sexes. It is science fiction.

Respectfully. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)
Gonna disagree with you on most counts because of two main HonorVerse points: 9/10 of the times the Marines are operating in low-grav situations [boarding actions, etc.], or have sufficient battle armor to thump the opposition rather quickly. That their hand to hand and other weapon skills are at "Marine level" is just SOP for elite units. I'd imagine that Susan Hibson in powered armor could carry both Mateo and Tomas out of trouble EVERY time, even on planet.
That makes unit configuration not solo strength the deciding factor. But even when we first meet her as an RMN Captain, she better be a damn good shot with any weapon, able to make quick and correct command decisions, etc. That she is fierce enough to just to make Scotty, et. all squirm is a nice bonus. [Hmmm. time to resurrect the romance thread, perhaps...]

I'd still take a Grayson Armsman or Armswoman for close in protection, but I'd want Marines in Battle Armor backing them up if anyone else got jumpy with heavier weapons/units.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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