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Flag officers for two ship divisions?

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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:38 pm

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nrellis wrote:Its been a while since I've read the earlier books in the series, but my impression is that the size of a division has changed at least twice.

All of the following is IMO and may be based on a faulty memory of the books.

In the earlier books (before the 1st Havenite War started) a division was 2 ships and the senior of the two captains acted as divisional commander without a dedicated "flag" staff; e.g. Pavel Young became deputy squadron commander when HMS Necromancer joined Hancock Station. Only the squadron commander had a staff.

Since the war started the move was made to four ship divisions. For ships up to heavy cruisers, the senior captain of the 2nd division acts as commodore, and has a "flag" staff in addition to directly commanding his own ship's, e.g. Scotty Tremaine. For battle cruisers and up, the 2nd division is commanded by an officer of at least Commodore's rank who does not directly command a ship

In the inter-war years of the Janacek Admiralty when battle squadrons were formed with six ships not eight (its not clear to me whether all squadrons shrank to six ships or just battle squadrons), my impression is that divisions went back to two ships which had a divisional "flag" staff (whether or not the commodore directly commanded a ship), and its this that Michelle Henke was thinking about when she is considers "added flexibility", as well as providing greater number of positions for Janacek's political appointees.
I'd thought that the added flexibility was that a 6 ship squadron as a tactical unit represents a more granular response: you can send them squadrons to up to four places that need them instead of only three with 24 ships that way, while keeping squadrons together. And if the flag officers and staffs are doing anything, well, you've got one third more of them. (Mind you, it assumes you've got one third more flag and staff officers, or that if you get too many of them together, efficiency plummets. As management, the latter is a distinct possibility.)

As I say that's all just my memory/impression of what has happened and its not helped by the fact that DW isn't always consistent about how he writes things, and can and does change things just so that certain characters can be involved in the chain of command (why does Abigail Hernes go to the flag lieutenants' lunch meetings?)


I don't have much recollection of the command details in earlier books, and don't have them arranged for easy searching. But the Pearl for the Janacek era organization only has the two ship divisions for wallers and CLAC's. While BC's have had divisions shrunk some, that's been from 4 to 3 BC's each, and destroyer and cruiser divisions are 3-4 ships each. (Then at least - it doesn't rule out the possibility of being even larger or, for that matter, smaller, earlier than the Janacek era, but I've no recollection of anything substantially different earlier and that at least seems a span consistent with contemporary organizations.)
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:31 pm

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The only time I can remember specific references to BC division sizes from pre-Janacek, was tSVW, at Hancock.

Three battlecruisers in BatCruRon Five, were organized into a temporary, oversized division for exercises, while Nike was laid up in the Fusion repairs. And they worked out against that pair of battlecruisers that were transferred in as a pair that had already worked together for some time (years?)

grabbed the wiki link for reference by others, BatCruRon Five. Also has a reference to the rank split. Rear Admiral Sarnow in overall command, with 2 commodores and 2 Captains (SG) for division command.

And I think also in the same tSVW, there was a Commodore in command of one of the other Hancock battlecruiser squadrons, and he was reduced from squadron command to division command. When Parks split up his BC's and scattered them across the Hancock AoO.
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by BrightSoul   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:38 pm

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At Fourth Yeltsin Honor had Yanakov, Trailman, and Brentwoth each commanding a 2 ship division with full staffs.

In later books we see the effect of strained manpower in Scotty Tremaine's command of a Division of Sag-Cs (or was it 2 divisions?) at Spindle.
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:59 pm

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Now I am going to have to re read the entire HH series and it is all your fault! Perhaps this might be a repeating case of, with 20 20 hindsight, we can find a little bit of fault in what other wise would be a great very long story line?

Also it is quite possible that DW knew what he was doing and including in the story line what happens to a very good Navy when bad leaders seize control of a government for political purposes and bad things happen to a good fleet.

I would define the promotion of sub standard political officers to positions of authority and command OVER other better officers as a bad thing. It is a good way to lose a shooting war, which is what nearly happens in the HH books.

I for one when I read the earlier books, (if memory serves) I noticed that the author took great pot shots at political events in our country at the time of the writing? If memory serves. Maybe DW was telling us something political?

Or ... it might be much to do about nothing. Our USN is also suffering from "Brass Bloat". Our percentage of officers is way way too high for the fleet deployed. Just me. Compare the percentages of officers today with WW2.

Finally, the way I would have done it is have more "acting" positions without filling out all the slots. Or even to a slight extent, running short of officers and instead leaning on the senior chiefs. Just me. Fewer officers, more underlings.

Just me. Respectfully. HB of CJ (old old coot) I love this Forum.
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by SWM   » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:18 am

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Here is the listing of the sizes of divisions and squadrons, posted in the FAQ section of this site: http://www.davidweber.net/posts/view/71 ... actic.html
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:15 am

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SWM wrote:Here is the listing of the sizes of divisions and squadrons, posted in the FAQ section of this site: http://www.davidweber.net/posts/view/71 ... actic.html
Excellent reference. I'd offer a surmise with an implied question -- all the way back from Flag in Exile, by the way -- which is that the flag captain is the ranking captain no matter seniority in his/her division even if the flag officer is taken out, and that the question about Honor's assumption of command was that she assumed it for the entire set of Hancock forces in spite of Capt. Rubenstein still being alive though incommunicado. She' have still had command and control over Nike's division mate, no matter what...yes/no?
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by Vince   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:36 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
SWM wrote:Here is the listing of the sizes of divisions and squadrons, posted in the FAQ section of this site: http://www.davidweber.net/posts/view/71 ... actic.html
Excellent reference. I'd offer a surmise with an implied question -- all the way back from Flag in Exile, by the way -- which is that the flag captain is the ranking captain no matter seniority in his/her division even if the flag officer is taken out, and that the question about Honor's assumption of command was that she assumed it for the entire set of Hancock forces in spite of Capt. Rubenstein still being alive though incommunicado. She' have still had command and control over Nike's division mate, no matter what...yes/no?

In theory, command is supposed to pass to the senior officer if the flag commander is a casualty. In practice, there can be mitigating circumstances where a junior officer can retain command instead of passing it to the senior officer:
The Short Victorious War, Chapter 31 wrote:And a fourth deadly splinter ripped into the back of Admiral Mark Sarnow's command chair.
It sheared through the chair, spinning end-for-end like a white-hot buzz-saw. The impact snapped the admiral's shock frame and hurled him forward, but the splinter caught him in midair. It severed his right leg just above the knee and mangled his left calf, chunks of the chair itself blasted into his back, and his ribcage shattered like a wicker basket as he impacted on the master plot and bounced back like a broken doll.
Samuel Webster flung himself toward his admiral while slamming blast doors chopped off the cyclone of escaping air. Sarnow's skin suit had already inflated emergency tourniquets on either thigh, and his scream was a faint, thready exhalation as Webster moved him gently to check his life-sign monitors.
The admiral stared up at his com officer, fighting the searing agony. "Don't scatter!" he gasped with all his failing strength, and his hand plucked at Webster's arm like a fevered child's. "Tell them not to scatter!"
Webster's face was white as Sarnow's terrible injuries registered, and his fingers darted across the skin suit's med panel. Blessed relief spread through the admiral, deadening the pain. Unconsciousness beckoned, but he fought it as he had the pain, clinging to awareness, as Ernestine Corell appeared beside him.
"Don't scatter!" he gasped again, and Corell looked at Webster.
"What did he say?" she demanded, and Webster shrugged helplessly.
"I don't know, Ma'am." Grief clogged his voice, and he touched Sarnow's shoulder gently. "I can't make it out."
Corell leaned closer, and Sarnow tried again, desperate to get the order out, but the blackness took him first.
* * *
Damage reports flooded into Nike's bridge, and Honor heard herself acknowledging them—calm and controlled, like a stranger—while her shocked eyes clung to the blank screen by her right knee.
She tore her gaze from it and looked at her own tactical repeater. CIC was gone, but Tactical's fire control systems had taken over the plot. She saw the cruisers Sorcerer and Merlin racing into new positions, taking up station on Nike's flanks to support her point defense as the task group recognized the Peeps' new target, and her flying thoughts were clear and cold.
She knew what Sarnow had been about to say. She'd been his tactical alter ego too long not to know . . . but he hadn't said it.
Command passed with the admiral. She knew that, too, yet there were no flag officers left. Captain Rubenstein was senior officer now, but Onslaught's gravitics were gone, her com section heavily damaged; she could neither receive the sensor platforms' transmissions nor pass orders effectively . . . and Rubenstein didn't know Danislav had arrived or what the admiral had intended.
She felt George Monet watching her, knew he was waiting for her order to inform Rubenstein he was in command, and said nothing.
Field of Dishonor, Prologue wrote:"Would you call the situation desperate, Captain?"
"I would call it . . . serious, Sir," Harrington responded after a moment's thought.
There was a brief silence, as if her invisible questioner were waiting for her to say something more. But her detached calm was impregnable, and Commodore Capra sighed.
"Very well, Captain Harrington. The situation was 'serious,' the enemy had altered course to pursue you, and Agamemnon had been destroyed. Were you in contact with Nike's flag bridge and Admiral Sarnow?"
"Yes, Sir, I was."
"So it was at this time he started to order the task group to scatter?"
"I believe that was his intention, Sir, but if so, he was interrupted before he actually gave orders to that effect."
"And how was he interrupted, Captain?"
"By a report from our sensor net, Sir. Our platforms had picked up the arrival of Admiral Danislav's dreadnoughts."
"I see. And did Admiral Sarnow then order the task group not to scatter?"
"No, Sir. He was wounded before he could pass any other orders," the quiet, unshadowed soprano replied.
"And how was he wounded, Captain? What were the circumstances?" The off-camera voice was almost irritated now, as if frustrated by Harrington's clinical professionalism.
"Nike was hit several times by enemy fire, Sir. One hit took out Boat Bay One, CIC, and Flag Bridge. Several members of the Admiral's staff were killed, and he himself was severely injured."
"He was rendered unconscious?"
"Yes, Sir."
"And did you pass command of the task group to the next senior officer?"
"I did not, Sir."
"You retained command?" Harrington nodded wordlessly. "Why, Captain?"
"In my judgment, Sir, the tactical situation was too serious to risk confusion in the chain of command. I was in possession of knowledge—the fact that Admiral Danislav had arrived—which might not be known to Captain Rubenstein, the next senior officer, and time was very limited."
"So you took it upon yourself to assume command of the entire task group in Admiral Sarnow's name?" Capra's question was sharp—not condemnatory, but with the air of making a crucial point—and Harrington nodded once more.
"I did, Sir," she said, without even a flicker of emotion as she admitted violating at least five separate articles of war.
"Why, Captain?" Capra pressed. "What made the situation time critical enough to justify such an action on your part?"

"We were approaching our preplanned scatter point, Sir. Admiral Danislav's arrival gave us the opportunity to lead the enemy into a position from which he could not escape interception, but only if we remained concentrated and offered him a target worth pursuing. Given the damage I knew Captain Rubenstein's com facilities had suffered, I judged there was too great a risk that the task group would scatter as previously planned before Captain Rubenstein could be fully apprised of the situation and assert tactical control."
"I see." There was another lengthy moment of silence, broken only by what might have been the soft, off-camera sound of shuffling paper. Then Capra spoke once more.

***Snip***

Silence returned, hovering for long, still moments, and then Vice Admiral Cordwainer cleared her throat and looked at Sir Lucius Cortez.
"I don't think there's any question that Lady Harrington exceeded her own authority in failing to pass command, Sir Lucius. At the same time, however, there can be neither doubt about nor excuse for Lord Young's actions. I endorse Admiral Parks' recommendation without reservation."
"Agreed." Cortez's voice was grim, his eyes and mouth even tighter than what they'd just seen seemed to justify, then he shook himself. "As for Lady Harrington's actions, Admiral Sarnow, Admiral Parks, the First Space Lord, Baroness Morncreek, and Her Majesty herself have all endorsed them. I don't think you need to concern yourself over them, Alyce."
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Boldface is the Book (in theory) that if the flag officer is incapacitated, command passes to the senior officer.

Underlined text are the extenuating and mitigating circumstances (in practice) that allowed Honor to retain command, when according to the Book, she should have passed command to Captain Rubenstein when Rear Admiral Sarnow became a casualty.
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by saber964   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:35 pm

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BrightSoul wrote:At Fourth Yeltsin Honor had Yanakov, Trailman, and Brentwoth each commanding a 2 ship division with full staffs.

In later books we see the effect of strained manpower in Scotty Tremaine's command of a Division of Sag-Cs (or was it 2 divisions?) at Spindle.


That command was as much a training school as anything else. More than likely the flag officers in question had all just been promoted to those slots. Remember the GSN was woefully unprepared for its expansion. IIRC it only had 3 years earlier 3 CL and 5 DD in its entirety. Now it has at least 11 SD 5BC plus all of the ships Manticore had transferred which was close to 60 ships of various types and sizes.
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:10 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:grabbed the wiki link for reference by others, BatCruRon Five. Also has a reference to the rank split. Rear Admiral Sarnow in overall command, with 2 commodores and 2 Captains (SG) for division command.

Oh, that's very good! 8 BC's in the squadron at that time, in 4 divisions of 2 each. Three of the divisions have the senior captain of the two serving as the division commander; the fourth has a commodore commanding the division, with each BC in that division having its own captain doing only that. If that was typical - I don't see any special reason to suppose it is or is not, so that's a toss-up - then we could suppose the 2 command officer per 2 ship division model is the more frequent, and the 3 command officer per 2 ship division one is a minority but not uncommon.

My guess is that the 3 command officers, 2 ships model isn't normal or used much for its own sake, but to allow for the squadron to split into components larger than a division (3 to 5 ships each) with a flag officer commanding each, rather than having a senior captain having to do double-duty in groups larger than a 2 ship division. It also provides a spare for the squadron in case of death, injury, or being out of communication. (I take it Commodore Banton was dead or at least fatally injured by the time Captain Harrington assumed practical command of the squadron.)
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Re: Flag officers for two ship divisions?
Post by munroburton   » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:11 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:grabbed the wiki link for reference by others, BatCruRon Five. Also has a reference to the rank split. Rear Admiral Sarnow in overall command, with 2 commodores and 2 Captains (SG) for division command.

Oh, that's very good! 8 BC's in the squadron at that time, in 4 divisions of 2 each. Three of the divisions have the senior captain of the two serving as the division commander; the fourth has a commodore commanding the division, with each BC in that division having its own captain doing only that. If that was typical - I don't see any special reason to suppose it is or is not, so that's a toss-up - then we could suppose the 2 command officer per 2 ship division model is the more frequent, and the 3 command officer per 2 ship division one is a minority but not uncommon.

My guess is that the 3 command officers, 2 ships model isn't normal or used much for its own sake, but to allow for the squadron to split into components larger than a division (3 to 5 ships each) with a flag officer commanding each, rather than having a senior captain having to do double-duty in groups larger than a 2 ship division. It also provides a spare for the squadron in case of death, injury, or being out of communication. (I take it Commodore Banton was dead or at least fatally injured by the time Captain Harrington assumed practical command of the squadron.)


The RMN's flag officers suffered disproportionately at Hancock. Before Sarnow was injured, all three Commodores under him - Banton, Prentis and Van Slyke(of the heavy cruiser squadron) - and their flagships had been destroyed.

Field of Dishonor mentions that there were only four RMN flag captains left in Hancock when Chin's ships surrendered. One would be Honor, the other three presumably are Danislav's and Danislav's divisional flag officers' flag captains.
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