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Counter missile pods

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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by crewdude48   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:14 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Well the graser torpedoes the Sharks fired had particle shields, and so does virtually every ship. Blowing up a big enough, dirty nuke, right in a missiles face, is just about guaranteed to annihilate the sensors of any missiles it's close to.

And the wedge is like a broom, so you just have to get "close" and the missile wedge itself would sweep that sudden particle spike right into the sensors. The only missile that might have particle shielding at all, would be the Apollo.


Now a dazzler, trying to even temporarily jam hostile missile control links, would have to be seeded with your attack wave, or fired relatively close to the same time. The farther out you can even temporarily cut missile links, the more survivable you make that salvo.


All missiles have particle shielding. It is built into the nodes and runs whenever they do. See the seen where Mike is simulating using Apollo pods as quick reaction recon platforms for textev.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:28 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:...(AKA they are ECM, not CM) with huge jamming systems in what would have otherwise been the "warhead space". ...


How are you going to replace the warhead with "huge jamming systems" when:

a) CMs don't have warheads, the rely on their over-sized wedges for wedges fratricide.

b) CMs wouldn't have room for "huge jamming systems" because CMs are about one-fifth the sized of a MDM,

c) even if you could fit a jamming system in a CM, CMs are capacitor powered and don't have the energy budget to run a jamming system -- especially since you'd have to sacrifice capacitor space to install your jamming systems.

FWIW, the latest from Ghost Rider Labs is called Lorelei and is a decoy/ecm drone fired from Mk23 capable (fusion powered) launchers. Lorelei seems to be a close-in decoy, but otherwise is close to what you suggest.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by kzt   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:17 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Well the graser torpedoes the Sharks fired had particle shields, and so does virtually every ship. Blowing up a big enough, dirty nuke, right in a missiles face, is just about guaranteed to annihilate the sensors of any missiles it's close to.

Which is why every capital ship facing a wave of thousands of missiles fires off a stream of huge nukes during the missiles terminal acquisition phase, right? If not, why not?
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by MaxxQ   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:20 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:...(AKA they are ECM, not CM) with huge jamming systems in what would have otherwise been the "warhead space". ...


How are you going to replace the warhead with "huge jamming systems" when:

a) CMs don't have warheads, the rely on their over-sized wedges for wedges fratricide.

b) CMs wouldn't have room for "huge jamming systems" because CMs are about one-fifth the sized of a MDM,

c) even if you could fit a jamming system in a CM, CMs are capacitor powered and don't have the energy budget to run a jamming system -- especially since you'd have to sacrifice capacitor space to install your jamming systems.

FWIW, the latest from Ghost Rider Labs is called Lorelei and is a decoy/ecm drone fired from Mk23 capable (fusion powered) launchers. Lorelei seems to be a close-in decoy, but otherwise is close to what you suggest.


<Bold mine>

Except the Viper, which not only has a warhead, but also a laserhead.

That said, the rest of your points are valid.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:22 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:Except the Viper, which not only has a warhead, but also a laserhead.

That said, the rest of your points are valid.


The Viper is not a counter-missile, it is an anti-LAC dog-fighting missile.

Even when used in a CM role, a Viper relies on Wedge fratricide instead of its anti-LAC warhead.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by SWM   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:18 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Thinking about this one a little bit more, but not in the traditional "CM wedge on shipkiller wedge" sense of a CM, and
definitely with a WAY different modus operandi. I'd have the
"first stage" impellers for a long range CM solution push the pod, not individual missiles].

In the Honorverse, an uncontrolled missile is pretty much as good as a miss, and at DDM/MDM ranges, even planned "rotating control" of the links screws with accuracy significantly. What if your "long range CM" solution is designed to deliberately screw with the enemy fleet's ability to control the shipkillers, (AKA they are ECM, not CM) with huge jamming systems in what would have otherwise been the "warhead space". Think of the clumped missiles with an ACM not being able to acquire their targets or get good links back to the ships, etc.

Thoughts?

Missiles are controlled by laser comms, not by radio. There isn't really a way to jam laser comms.

Plus (as others have said), counter missiles don't have any warhead space.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by SWM   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:21 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Thinking about this one a little bit more, but not in the traditional "CM wedge on shipkiller wedge" sense of a CM, and
definitely with a WAY different modus operandi. I'd have the
"first stage" impellers for a long range CM solution push the pod, not individual missiles].

See David Weber's comments about powered pods:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/176/1
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:52 pm

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SWM wrote:Missiles are controlled by laser comms, not by radio. There isn't really a way to jam laser comms.

Plus (as others have said), counter missiles don't have any warhead space.


The is a perfectly easy to jam laser coms - Chaff. Lots and lots (and lots and lots and....) of Chaff :twisted:
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by Relax   » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:57 pm

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SWM wrote:Missiles are controlled by laser comms, not by radio. There isn't really a way to jam laser comms.


No, control links are not laser based. Could they be? Yes. Would this be better than radio? No. Have to physically move the lens and pinpoint an individual missile. A single wedge being initiated after being fired out the tubes would completely block ALL of your control links. Really bad idea.

Doppler due to velocity + phase locked loops make radio outside of simple wide frequency white noise unjammable. Here on earth we do not have the Doppler shift component and therefore white noise can blanket an area. With doppler shift, one can read the rise time. In fact, one could vary the rise time for security that no white noise or transmitter trying to duplicate said waveform could possibly duplicate ever.
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Re: Counter missile pods
Post by MaxxQ   » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:26 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
MaxxQ wrote:Except the Viper, which not only has a warhead, but also a laserhead.

That said, the rest of your points are valid.


The Viper is not a counter-missile, it is an anti-LAC dog-fighting missile.


Sure it is. It just happens to ba a CM that can also take out LACs with a laserhead.

For that matter, full-up MK-16s or MK-23s could be considered CMs if they are used for that role. A bit wasteful of resources, but it's possible.

Weird Harold wrote:Even when used in a CM role, a Viper relies on Wedge fratricide instead of its anti-LAC warhead.


Yes, it does. And your point?

The original statement that I was responding to said that CMs do not have warheads. A Viper *is* a CM that *does* have a warhead. It doesn't matter whether its primary role is one or the other, it's made on a CM body, it's fired from CM tubes, it can be used as a CM, therefore, it is functionally a CM, and thus is the exception to the rule that CMs don't have warheads.
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