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Mesan Alignment Questions...

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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Hutch   » Thu May 21, 2015 8:09 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Seems about right.
Because (as has been brought up by others here before) if they'd spent that 600 years not stirring up anti-genetic modification feelings through their genetic slavery programs they probably could have brought much of the galaxy to see Beowulf's Life Sciences Code as too restrictive, and gotten them in favor of Mesa's greater willingness to make the genetic mods that people want for themselves of their offspring.

Basically a well run 600 year PR campaign was pretty likely get them their stated goal. But not their unstated goal of dismantling everything Beowulf created and rubbing their success in Beowulf's face. (Getting shut down and exiled really seems to have given the Detwilers a 'thing' about Beowulf)


Indeed, Johathan. In Cauldron of Ghosts, no less than Jacques Benton-Ramirez y Chou spells it out:

“Absolutely. I’ve been thinking about it a lot since you dropped McBryde’s bombshell on us, and I’ve come to the conclusion that what’s really behind this entire master plan of theirs—assuming McBryde got it right, of course—is more than simply finally accomplishing Leonard Detweiler’s dream of creating a genetically superior species. That’s obviously part of it, but looking at what we did already know about Mesa and Mesans, I’d say an equally big part of it is proving they were right all along. It’s been a long, long time since the Final War. The feelings of revulsion and horror it generated have largely faded, and the prejudice against ‘genies’ is far weaker than it used to be. In fact, I would argue that if it weren’t for the existence of genetic slavery, that prejudice probably would have completely ceased to exist by now. If this Alignment had been willing to take even a fraction of the resources it must have invested in its conspiracies and its infiltration and the development of the technology that made Oyster Bay possible and spend it on propaganda—on education, for God’s sake—it almost certainly could have convinced a large minority, possibly even a majority, of the rest of the human race to go along with it. To embark, even if more gradually and more cautiously than the Alignment might prefer, on the deliberate improvement of the human genome. For that matter, in the existence of people like Honor and Yana we’ve already deliberately improved on that genome! But I don’t think it ever really occurred to them to take that approach. I think they locked themselves into the idea that their vision had to be imposed on the rest of us and that as the people whose ancestors had seen that division so clearly so much sooner than anyone else, it’s their destiny to do just that. Which is one reason I compared them to the Faithful, Catherine. Their whole purpose—or the way they’ve chosen to go about achieving it, at least—is fundamentally irrational, and only someone as fanatical as the people who built ‘doomsday bombs’ to destroy their entire planet in order to ‘save it’ from Benjamin the Great and the rest of the moderates could possibly have invested so much in that irrationality.”
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by jgnfld   » Thu May 21, 2015 11:33 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Their whole purpose—or the way they’ve chosen to go about achieving it, at least—is fundamentally irrational, and only someone as fanatical as the people who built ‘doomsday bombs’ to destroy their entire planet in order to ‘save it’ from Benjamin the Great and the rest of the moderates could possibly have invested so much in that irrationality.”


Another problem with the irrationality they exhibit is the incredible level of sociopathy they accept in actions with even the flimsiest of connection to their plan. We have seen very cool reactions to the massacres, rapes and plunders of literally millions in the textev and God alone knows how many massacres, rapes, and plunders have occurred off screen. Many of these are very distant to the course of the central plan.

Not saying there haven't been groups equally sociopathic in history--the Communist and Nazi Revolutions come to mind. Even the Roman Republican -> Imperial transition. Am saying I highly doubt that they could establish a stable society that accepts that level of sociopathy while simultaneously maintaining a coherent leadership group capable of carrying off a 6 century conspiracy without spawning subconspiracies aimed at taking control of the leadership apparatus. Once that occurs--and it will occur frequently given the psych profile of the Alignment management--the odds of staying on the original plan would tend to zero.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu May 21, 2015 3:50 pm

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jgnfld wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Their whole purpose—or the way they’ve chosen to go about achieving it, at least—is fundamentally irrational, and only someone as fanatical as the people who built ‘doomsday bombs’ to destroy their entire planet in order to ‘save it’ from Benjamin the Great and the rest of the moderates could possibly have invested so much in that irrationality.”


Another problem with the irrationality they exhibit is the incredible level of sociopathy they accept in actions with even the flimsiest of connection to their plan. We have seen very cool reactions to the massacres, rapes and plunders of literally millions in the textev and God alone knows how many massacres, rapes, and plunders have occurred off screen. Many of these are very distant to the course of the central plan.

Not saying there haven't been groups equally sociopathic in history--the Communist and Nazi Revolutions come to mind. Even the Roman Republican -> Imperial transition. Am saying I highly doubt that they could establish a stable society that accepts that level of sociopathy while simultaneously maintaining a coherent leadership group capable of carrying off a 6 century conspiracy without spawning subconspiracies aimed at taking control of the leadership apparatus. Once that occurs--and it will occur frequently given the psych profile of the Alignment management--the odds of staying on the original plan would tend to zero.

Right. That sheds some light too on the high led-to-leader ratio of Mesa and the Alignment. The inner layers of the Onion have to be staffed by functional sociopaths - well, people who are so wrapped up in an ideology that they amount to that - but that requires a highly exceptional psychological profile. Let them be a bit more, oh, human, and you get Jack McBryde and a danger to the Alignment; let them be a bit more comfortable being unconcerned about actual human beings and you go out past Isabel Bardasano and you can't interface with humanity adequately. The "sweet" spot in the middle is (for example) Evelina Detweiler, a caring wife and mother who casually considers the pros and cons of plague weaponry.

One wonders how much of the Long Range Planning Board's activity has been crafting these kinds of people, fit to lead the Alignment.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by n7axw   » Thu May 21, 2015 7:38 pm

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Thinking of Sig's original comment, I think I have to agree with his basic point. Had they gone out and started establishing colonies, they wouldn't have had to have presented themselves as conquistadors. They could have built up a sizable naval establishment with the justification of defending the colonies the mother world was sending out. Play down the genetic improvement bit and stop acting like an ogre for the benefit of everybody else and couple that with a good pr campaign and the rest of the galaxy goes to sleep. The end result would be a lot more dangerous alignment with a lot more to work with than they do now.

When you think about it, the Alignment has accomplished very little with its 600 year effort; the most spectacular being to piss Manticore off with OB. Not really very impressive.

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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Sigs   » Thu May 21, 2015 9:23 pm

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BobfromSydney wrote:The problem is that the bigger they grow the higher the chance of accidental discovery becomes. We are talking about a very long time-frame here. Any discovery may likely result in activation of the SLN's reserve fleet in a panic and the idea of serious genetic modification of the human genome would be deep-sixed for good.

One planet is not too hard to keep under wraps. But 10 planets, 100 planets? Once they get discovered people will try to communicate with them and ask about trade etc. Then it would be extremely difficult to keep their secrets or stop evil outsider propaganda (i.e. the truth) being broadcast to their citizens (and cloned slaves).

They also have to deal with defectors as well. When you use a hostile approach to conquer people they will generally fight you and even if they lose, they will hate you and your culture/philosophy etc. It would be hard for the MA to grow faster than the rest of the galaxy when it has a 2000+ planet 'head start'. The more planets they develop the higher the chance of discovery. It would be almost certain that they would be discovered before they reached 'parity' in production capabilities, at which point they would be embroiled in a long war and eventually be crushed.

Imagine how people on Earth would react today if a Nazi moon base actually existed and was discovered. There would be near universal hostility and public outcry for the base to be attacked and the people there locked up (or just plain nuked, considering the logistics).



I'm not talking about a system neighbouring an already occupied system, think in distances of hundreds of light years through unexplored and unoccupied space from the furthest explored and occupied system. Start with one or two systems and build up their industrial power according to a plan and expand from there. If there is anyone in the series who does not have a problem with manpower is it Mesa since they have a virtually unlimited source of manpower as well as being in possession of the timetable for the war no one else is aware of nor with the enemy they even know exists.

As for beings discovered? Anyone who is brave enough to explore that far from human space can quietly disappear, I mean seriously, we have already seen that they tend to disregard the value of human life, at least those that don't belong to their side. As long as they mange to keep a separation between themselves and the rest of humanity they can in a few centuries organize a Star Nation that has the military muscle to destroy the SLN and every other organized force in one fell swoop.

After the initial investment of manpower and resources for the new colonies Mesa can then turn around and imbed itself in to every aspect of Solarian life and be a fifth column when the war starts as well as a source of information on research and development. All that they need to do is keep the Solarian League from Exploring towards them, and they need to keep their people focused inward rather than outward.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Sigs   » Thu May 21, 2015 9:38 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
A couple of points:

1) At the time the MAlign was formed, there was a much fresher memory of the horrors of Earth's "Final War" and much more prejudice against "Genies." Any nation or organization that espoused a philosophy of "genetic uplift" was going to get the reputation that Mesa and Manpower earned.

2) Public opinion and real-politic can accept the existence of one renegade bastion of "genetic supremacists;" they would have a LOT more problems with a 600 system empire with the same philosophy. I doubt that an open-source version of the MAlign would ever be allowed to grow to 600 systems.

3) The current MAlign plan pits enemies against each other with little or no application of MAlign resources. In the beginning, conservation of resources by manipulating others would be an imperative for what was essentially one mad-man and a small, mostly family, group of followers. Even 'today' the inner core of the 'Onion' is not much more than a single mad-man and a small, mostly family, group; possibly even more "family" than Leonard Detweiler and Company included in the beginning.

4) You're trying to establish a "better," more rational plan to conquer the universe without considering that the founders of the MAlign were not terrible rational people. The whole impetus for the MAlign boils down to, "If they won't accept my genius, I'll MAKE them accept my plan." or something similar. That's not a rational start; why would you expect them to shift to a rational strategy later?


1)The whole point is for them not to get that reputation simply because no one should know thy exist. If the rest of humanity knows the MA exists then it becomes pretty obvious why they exist.

2) Again they wont be allowed to exist, the SL will not know they exist and therefor they cannot do anything to prevent their existence.

3)Their operations seem to be overcomplicated and with a high probability of failure, it may be one madman and his family but if I am not mistaking there are a number of star nations pledging allegiance to the MA in order to form the core of the new star nation to replace the Solarian League. I can't actually see what they did for 600 years, basically everything that we have seen up to this point could have been accomplished in a few decades if not a little over a century, granted that we haven't seen everything but as of this moment their 600 year plan seems like a waste.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Sigs   » Thu May 21, 2015 9:40 pm

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Kizarvexis wrote:It's not so much about conquering as the Detweilers showing that they are RIGHT.

Maybe not, but the reason doesn't really matter end result does. Doubt that the alignment would kill the odd billion or two, get the rest of humanity to admit they are inferior and then return everything back to the way it was before.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu May 21, 2015 10:17 pm

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Sigs wrote:1)The whole point is for them not to get that reputation simply because no one should know thy exist. If the rest of humanity knows the MA exists then it becomes pretty obvious why they exist.


That would be a rational approach, but the MAlign is not, and never has been, rational.

FWIW, the 12 Star Nations forming the Renaissance Factor are led by MAlign Alpha Lines that are hereditary rulers; the rank and file of those nations aren't aware of the MAlign's manipulations or goals.

What the MAlign has accomplished in 600 years, is a population expansion of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma lines in positions of influence throughout Human Space. That gives them sources of information and influence they wouldn't have in an isolated empire.

One other point to consider:

How do you know you are superior if you don't have an inferior to be superior to?

Going away to build an isolated empire would force an entirely different dynamic on their uplift program. Thandi Palane is the result of such an approach; the Mfecane worlds have produced inhabitants that are only a generation or so away from being a different species, unable to interbreed with humans.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by SWM   » Thu May 21, 2015 10:17 pm

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Sigs wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:It's not so much about conquering as the Detweilers showing that they are RIGHT.

Maybe not, but the reason doesn't really matter end result does. Doubt that the alignment would kill the odd billion or two, get the rest of humanity to admit they are inferior and then return everything back to the way it was before.

Not to them. They may not even admit it to themselves, but David has made it quite clear that they are doing this more to prove a point and punish those who defied them before than it is to improve humanity. It is not rational, and it never has been. That is the entire point of the way that David has portrayed their plans. David has said himself that they could have achieved their stated goals a lot easier and a lot sooner if they had been rational about it.
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Re: Mesan Alignment Questions...
Post by Hutch   » Fri May 22, 2015 8:26 am

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Sigs wrote:I'm not talking about a system neighbouring an already occupied system, think in distances of hundreds of light years through unexplored and unoccupied space from the furthest explored and occupied system. Start with one or two systems and build up their industrial power according to a plan and expand from there. If there is anyone in the series who does not have a problem with Manpower is it Mesa since they have a virtually unlimited source of manpower as well as being in possession of the timetable for the war no one else is aware of nor with the enemy they even know exists.

As for beings discovered? Anyone who is brave enough to explore that far from human space can quietly disappear, I mean seriously, we have already seen that they tend to disregard the value of human life, at least those that don't belong to their side. As long as they mange to keep a separation between themselves and the rest of humanity they can in a few centuries organize a Star Nation that has the military muscle to destroy the SLN and every other organized force in one fell swoop.

After the initial investment of manpower and resources for the new colonies Mesa can then turn around and imbed itself in to every aspect of Solarian life and be a fifth column when the war starts as well as a source of information on research and development. All that they need to do is keep the Solarian League from Exploring towards them, and they need to keep their people focused inward rather than outward.



I see where you are going, and in an alternate universe to the MWW's, it might even be an interesting plot.

But there are some problems with it, IMHO.

1. It's hard to populate literally hundreds of planets, much less find them. Mesa began with a limited population and is still, centuries later, something like 6 billion (IIRC), of which over 60% are either slaves or descendents of freed slaves (seccies). Colonizing, populating, industializing and controlling hundreds of planets to focus them (in the end) on Galatic control is perhaps a job even beyond the Alphas.

2. Staying in contact with a civilization hundreds of light years away (and that you don't want to have any idea that you exist) is going to be difficult, especially if you are using Mesa as a conduit. Somebody is going to spot those odd spaceships coming and going. And while the Alphas and other 'uplifted' folks may think they are smart enough to develop the weapons necessary in isolation to take over, history is littered with Kingdons secure in the knowledge that they were superior--until someone else came along and showed them they were not (see China and to some extent, Japan, in the 19th century).

So I think the policy of going far away and then coming back with overwhelming advantages, while possible, is a bit more problematic than the MAlignment's 'burrow from within' stragety.

But YMMV.
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