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Torch Navy

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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:34 pm

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While Torch may be using the captured PRN-in Excile cruisers as training ships right now, their best move might be to trade them in (even at scrap value) for more modern, more automated and more effective Erwhonesse built ships with the Manti-lite tec.

Better sensors, better weapons/ranges, compatable with Maya and the Erwhon navy mentions and parts. Even given that the x-Peep ships were theoretically reconditioned and rearmed - with Cataphract Mod 1 in pods- the range and strengths of the weapons comming out of Erwhon are going to be better that the existing general SLN materials.

Ok, Torch has no idea that there are bombs built into those former Peep ships, but those things had seen hard use before refitting and they are aging.
So work them as training platforms till you can trade up to perhaps smaller but better quality ships with better equipment and weapons.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by kzt   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:55 am

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I'm unconvinced that the entire Torch Navy can manage a single cruiser.

Not sure what they are planning, but I have my doubts they are going to manning more than one any time soon.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:16 am

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While Torch may be using the captured PRN-in Excile cruisers as training ships right now, their best move might be to trade them in (even at scrap value) for more modern, more automated and more effective Erwhonesse built ships with the Manti-lite tec.

Better sensors, better weapons/ranges, compatable with Maya and the Erwhon navy mentions and parts. Even given that the x-Peep ships were theoretically reconditioned and rearmed - with Cataphract Mod 1 in pods- the range and strengths of the weapons comming out of Erwhon are going to be better that the existing general SLN materials.

Ok, Torch has no idea that there are bombs built into those former Peep ships, but those things had seen hard use before refitting and they are aging.
So work them as training platforms till you can trade up to perhaps smaller but better quality ships with better equipment and weapons.


You are right!
What ships does the Torch Navy need?
Well, they don´t have much Crew, so ships with a low Crew need.

If they contunue to free slaves they need ships with boarding crews and the ability to imprison slave traders.
Also the ship should be fast so it can intercept slavers and escape any unfriendly warships.

In my opinion some light Cruisers would be the best coice for the Torch Navy.

As for the Mars class Havenite heavy Cruisers they got after the battle, well, it´s partwise a diplomatic case.

Torch has not enough prisons to keep the surrendered StateSec guys, but I guess Haven will take them to bring them to court.
Question is, if Haven declare the ships are still theirs or accept Torch as new owner.

Maya and Erewohn could be interesed in the Mars cruisers to get information about modern design to upgrade their own designs. Could get Torch the funds to buy the ships they need or in case of Erewhon, excange them directly for better ships.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by tlb   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:34 am

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Maldorian wrote:If they contunue to free slaves they need ships with boarding crews and the ability to imprison slave traders.
Also the ship should be fast so it can intercept slavers and escape any unfriendly warships.

In my opinion some light Cruisers would be the best choice for the Torch Navy.

Now that Mesa has been captured by the GA, what is the status of genetic slavery? For the moment there may still be slave facilities for Torch to move against, but can that serve as a basis for planning a navy?

What I expect that they need is a force sufficient to prevent piracy. They have no inkling that the RF might appear out of the wormhole terminus at any time.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:58 pm

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Mesa was the known focal point for genetic slavery but from a practical standpoint it is still alive and well on Darius. It's just that then non-Alpha line doesn't know they are slaves.

Are there any places other than Mesa that have the operations to produce genetic slaves? We don't know. It wouldn't surprize me if there were. Are there any operations which are transporting slaves from place to place? Again, we don't know but even with the money involed for the answer is probably yes. Then you get the whole problem of the debt peonage in so many of the places where wither OFS was in control or systems who used OFS to be a hammer to keep populations down with various Transtellars owning or cooperating with local govenment surpress the populations.

There are probably millions and millions of slaves out there, genetic or otherwise given the extensive traffic that was going on before Mesa was devastated by the Alignment in their cunning plan of misdirection and burning all that evidence.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by tlb   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:08 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Mesa was the known focal point for genetic slavery but from a practical standpoint it is still alive and well on Darius. It's just that then non-Alpha line doesn't know they are slaves.

Are there any places other than Mesa that have the operations to produce genetic slaves? We don't know. It wouldn't surprize me if there were. Are there any operations which are transporting slaves from place to place? Again, we don't know but even with the money involved for the answer is probably yes. Then you get the whole problem of the debt peonage in so many of the places where wither OFS was in control or systems who used OFS to be a hammer to keep populations down with various Transtellars owning or cooperating with local govenment surpress the populations.

There are probably millions and millions of slaves out there, genetic or otherwise given the extensive traffic that was going on before Mesa was devastated by the Alignment in their cunning plan of misdirection and burning all that evidence.

I do not believe that the caste system on Darius can be called slavery (except in the Marxian sense of being wage "slaves"). In any case, once Darius is found, that will end.

The books make the point that Manpower was probably taking a loss on all the operations, except for the pleasure lines. Sexual slavery will continue to be a police problem, but much more diffuse.

Without a centralized source of slaves (and Manpower was the only one mentioned in the books) there is not going to be an extensive slave transportation system to attack.

Is the Torch Navy really going to be tasked with fighting debt peonage? I doubt it.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Theemile   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:24 pm

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Maldorian wrote:
While Torch may be using the captured PRN-in Excile cruisers as training ships right now, their best move might be to trade them in (even at scrap value) for more modern, more automated and more effective Erwhonesse built ships with the Manti-lite tec.

Better sensors, better weapons/ranges, compatable with Maya and the Erwhon navy mentions and parts. Even given that the x-Peep ships were theoretically reconditioned and rearmed - with Cataphract Mod 1 in pods- the range and strengths of the weapons comming out of Erwhon are going to be better that the existing general SLN materials.

Ok, Torch has no idea that there are bombs built into those former Peep ships, but those things had seen hard use before refitting and they are aging.
So work them as training platforms till you can trade up to perhaps smaller but better quality ships with better equipment and weapons.


You are right!
What ships does the Torch Navy need?
Well, they don´t have much Crew, so ships with a low Crew need.

If they contunue to free slaves they need ships with boarding crews and the ability to imprison slave traders.
Also the ship should be fast so it can intercept slavers and escape any unfriendly warships.

In my opinion some light Cruisers would be the best coice for the Torch Navy.

As for the Mars class Havenite heavy Cruisers they got after the battle, well, it´s partwise a diplomatic case.

Torch has not enough prisons to keep the surrendered StateSec guys, but I guess Haven will take them to bring them to court.
Question is, if Haven declare the ships are still theirs or accept Torch as new owner.

Maya and Erewohn could be interesed in the Mars cruisers to get information about modern design to upgrade their own designs. Could get Torch the funds to buy the ships they need or in case of Erewhon, excange them directly for better ships.


Ideally, anything for the current Torch Navy should be compact, powerful, with a small manning footprint, and be reconfigurable or multipurpose.

Something akin to a FSV or two would be a good fit now for the Torch Navy - it's reconfigurable nature would be ideal - normally carring a pair of LAC bays, a Parts bay and a Troop/Passenger bay in addition to the externally mounted pod racks. That should give the ability to close down a system with LACS, and give space to lift slaves - if necessary it could increase it's passenger lift by losing the different bays in favor of passenger pays, and still be armed with a Lt cruiser weapons suite and 8 LACs. If necessray it would be available to support a large Frigate squadron or repair a damaged frigate.

They were discussing using a regiment from Torch as the spearhead of a Mesa occupation force at the beginning of CoG - having the Regiment show up in a pair of new Torch flagged FSVs with their own LAC escort would be a show.

A Mars CA (or maybe 3) would be good once Torch has their naval feet underneath them. Their manning is over a thousand each and are designed to control large pod loads, so they would be good system defense ships with a training/National Guard rotational crew bent. I would spin them up slowly, with one being the training ship, then one being the guard ship once enough people have been trained.

Good news, post 1923, more trained people from Boewulf/Haven/Manticore (and possibly Beowulf) will leave active duty in those navies and possibly move to the Torch Navy - we have already seen a few "official" Volunteers from Manticore and Haven, and "unofficial" ones from Beowulf from the core of the navy, but post conflict, any former slaves or children of slaves will relocate to Torch and bring their skills and experience with them.

Torch's timeline has been short - Freed in early 1919, and seeing it's former oppressor fall in 1923. What will Torch's navy look like in 1925?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:52 pm

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Maldorian wrote:Torch has not enough prisons to keep the surrendered StateSec guys, but I guess Haven will take them to bring them to court.
Question is, if Haven declare the ships are still theirs or accept Torch as new owner.

Maya and Erewohn could be interesed in the Mars cruisers to get information about modern design to upgrade their own designs. Could get Torch the funds to buy the ships they need or in case of Erewhon, excange them directly for better ships.


Prisons are easy to make, but Haven probably wants those "in-exile" people back to try them, justly, for their crimes.

Now as to whether anyone wants those ships? I don't think Haven, Erewhon or Maya want them. Maya certainly could have had them, but decided to give them to Torch just to keep the real force strength that Roszak deployed against the Peeps-in-exile hidden. Anything he could have needed, he got and then turned the rest to Torch. And even then I don't think he needed anything: those were Mars-C designs, from around 1910, whereas he was getting new builds from Erewhon with Manticore tech dating from 1914 (though not the full package, as Erewhon never got it). Manticoran tech being more advanced than Peep at the time, I don't think there's anything useful for Maya in those ships.

And ditto for Erewhon, since after all they're building Roszak his ships.

And neither would Haven. Why would they want a pre-Foraker set of Mars-C that were already obsolete before Foraker was unleashed?
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:06 pm

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tlb wrote:I do not believe that the caste system on Darius can be called slavery (except in the Marxian sense of being wage "slaves"). In any case, once Darius is found, that will end.

The books make the point that Manpower was probably taking a loss on all the operations, except for the pleasure lines. Sexual slavery will continue to be a police problem, but much more diffuse.

Without a centralized source of slaves (and Manpower was the only one mentioned in the books) there is not going to be an extensive slave transportation system to attack.

Is the Torch Navy really going to be tasked with fighting debt peonage? I doubt it.


Despite being headquartered in Mesa, Manpower was a transstellar. That means it has offices and production facilities scattered around the known Galaxy. The fall of Mesa means its top leadership, like CEO Immacolata Yemendijian, is now out of the control loop, but middle and middle-high management may still be around in other places. And Mesa cannot have been the sole planet that practiced genetic slavery in a large scale, though it may have been the largest by far.

So Manpower could continue, if it wishes to. Or fragment into multiple, smaller companies that do.

But I don't think that has a long-term future. Torch (with the help of the GA) will make use of the fall of Mesa to force the other planets still accepting genetic slavery to come to terms and ban the practice, emancipating the slaves. Without its central control, any spun companies spun off from Manpower will quickly realise its market is gone and was never competitive in the first place. They'll also discover that it was a money-losing machine and will close shop.

So genetic slavery will hopefully be 90% gone in the next 5 years or so. There'll be pockets where it will still exist (not counting Darius), which is somewhere where the RTN will eventually get to.

After this, there'll be undeclared/unofficial slavery. Just like the main slavery of Africans was de jure extinct by 1888 in our world, de facto slavery continued and continues even today. I expect the same in the Honorverse: there'll be labs making genetic slaves for a long term. Torch special ops and the BSC will still have work on their hands.

I just don't expect this to be told in any book or even short story, unless Weber decides to relax the rules for new stories after he's finished with the main plotline.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by tlb   » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:23 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Despite being headquartered in Mesa, Manpower was a transstellar. That means it has offices and production facilities scattered around the known Galaxy. The fall of Mesa means its top leadership, like CEO Immacolata Yemendijian, is now out of the control loop, but middle and middle-high management may still be around in other places. And Mesa cannot have been the sole planet that practiced genetic slavery in a large scale, though it may have been the largest by far.

So Manpower could continue, if it wishes to. Or fragment into multiple, smaller companies that do.

Do we have textual evidence of that? Mesa was not part of the Solarian League, because slavery was officially illegal (but winked at). From Crown of Slaves, chapter 36:
The navies of most civilized powers subscribed to the theory that the slave trade constituted an offense against humanity. The Solarian League had certainly taken that position for centuries, and had pursued an official policy directed toward its eventual eradication for just as long. The Solarian approach was based on an entire network of interlocking bilateral treaty agreements with its independent neighbors, coupled with bureaucratic fiat within its own territory or that under the jurisdiction of the OFS.
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