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Torch Navy

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Re: Torch Navy
Post by stewart   » Fri May 22, 2015 9:38 pm

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Hutch wrote:
stewart wrote:And Who's on First?[/quote]

----------

What's on Second ?
I don't know Who's on Third
Why?
Because
and
I don't Give a Darn !

Oh -- He's our shortstop

-- Sorry, couldn't resist.

-- Stewart


And it you can divert us that much, then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_gSWTQKE-0 (skip to 1:30)

Perhaps the finest comedy routine ever.


----------------

By (IMHO) probably the best stand-up team of all time.

Groucho and George Burns were essentially solo performers with W.C.Fields and George Burns as my favorite solos.

-- Stewart
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Cobalt   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:56 am

Cobalt
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Let me revive this topic as it has the most fitting name...

What we know about Torch Navy? I would say not much...

Only thing we know at least something are ships. Frigates and then ex-Havenite ones.

What about ranks? At first it looked like they will be using single rank system for Army and Navy. Later we see "normal" naval ranks to be used. They adapted RMN/RHN rank system for Navy? Probably.

What about uniforms? I dont recall even single mention of them, even single color... Do you noticed something?
There is apealing idea of prison-like orange jumpsuits as their working uniform...

Do you know anything more?
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:44 am

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Cobalt wrote:Let me revive this topic as it has the most fitting name...

What we know about Torch Navy? I would say not much...

Only thing we know at least something are ships. Frigates and then ex-Havenite ones.

What about ranks? At first it looked like they will be using single rank system for Army and Navy. Later we see "normal" naval ranks to be used. They adapted RMN/RHN rank system for Navy? Probably.

What about uniforms? I dont recall even single mention of them, even single color... Do you noticed something?
There is apealing idea of prison-like orange jumpsuits as their working uniform...

Do you know anything more?


Our best glimpse of the Torch navy was in Cauldron of Ghosts. We saw a pair of Frigates operating to interdict slavers. I've read that, but not studied it for operational details.

Beyond that, we know the Torch Navy has 14 frigates, of 2 different designs. They ordered 3 advanced Destroyers from Manticore ( probably similiar to a Wolfhound in design (total supposition)) which may or may not have been delivered. They got 5 Mars-C CA, and possibly a handful of CLs and DDs from the Manpower assault.

The ex- Havenite / Solarian ships are manpower intensive, and all have a hidden remote detonation charge on them. The CAs Each require more manpower than all 14 frigates combined, so the entire force will not be manned anytime soon, requiring an expansion of 10x the manpower of the "current" navy.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:54 pm

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I think the best assessment of where the Torch Navy is going is related to conversations in Cauldron of Ghosts, etc. where they talk about the RMN's Anton Peterson being the effective commander in charge of the build-out and training, and the fact that Maya, Torch, and Erewhon are at least informally in alliance by the time UH takes place.

My thought is that Torch will very quickly be buying the same kind of cruisers, etc. that Rozak, etc. have been ordering... with the RMN giving away enough of the specs to allow these new ships to fire the Mk16-G, and possibly committing to provide FSVs at a good "loan rate"... complete with trained crews whose secondary job is to bring Torch Navy personnel up to RMN/Grayson training levels.

Thoughts?
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by drothgery   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:40 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:My thought is that Torch will very quickly be buying the same kind of cruisers, etc. that Rozak, etc. have been ordering... with the RMN giving away enough of the specs to allow these new ships to fire the Mk16-G


Probably not. The Marksman "light cruisers" were basically Star Knight heavy cruisers modified to
1) Use "new-style" automation levels and
2) Fire ERMs

However, they're still much too small to fire Mark 16s from their broadsides, and a Roland-type all chase tubes setup would take a very different design (and really isn't a great idea if you're not exploiting a likely temporary major tech advantage). So I'd guess the RTN will probably want something different by the time they get around to ordering new-build cruisers again (presumably by then Manticore will have figured out what they're doing in that space -- the Wolfhound, Avalon, and Roland all have issues so I'm sure the RMN will be building an all-new design for their smallest hyper-capable ships once they get building again unless they decide hyper-capable warships smaller than a Sag-C aren't really viable -- and that's what they'll get too).

And it's likely if the RTN ever gets around to being able to afford BCs and thinking they need them, they'll want something along the lines of a Nike rather than than the BC(P)s Maya ordered (not sure if they've take delivery of any yet).
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by saber964   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:41 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Cobalt wrote:Let me revive this topic as it has the most fitting name...

What we know about Torch Navy? I would say not much...

Only thing we know at least something are ships. Frigates and then ex-Havenite ones.

What about ranks? At first it looked like they will be using single rank system for Army and Navy. Later we see "normal" naval ranks to be used. They adapted RMN/RHN rank system for Navy? Probably.

What about uniforms? I dont recall even single mention of them, even single color... Do you noticed something?
There is apealing idea of prison-like orange jumpsuits as their working uniform...

Do you know anything more?


Our best glimpse of the Torch navy was in Cauldron of Ghosts. We saw a pair of Frigates operating to interdict slavers. I've read that, but not studied it for operational details.

Beyond that, we know the Torch Navy has 14 frigates, of 2 different designs. They ordered 3 advanced Destroyers from Manticore ( probably similiar to a Wolfhound in design (total supposition)) which may or may not have been delivered. They got 5 Mars-C CA, and possibly a handful of CLs and DDs from the Manpower assault.

The ex- Havenite / Solarian ships are manpower intensive, and all have a hidden remote detonation charge on them. The CAs Each require more manpower than all 14 frigates combined, so the entire force will not be manned anytime soon, requiring an expansion of 10x the manpower of the "current" navy.

As last we heard the RTN had Mars-A not Mars-C but as part of Havens aid package they would refit them to Mars-C standard along with all of the other captured PNE ships.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Maldorian   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:15 pm

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The big question is: "Does Torch keep the solarian ships with the suicide device?"

Solarian ships are obsolete, using them is useless.

Using diffrent tecnologies (solarian, manticorian, haven) is a logistic nightmare.

Are the StateSec ships the current Haven ship modells or deos they have neweer designs? If yes, than a lot of ships to give away for Torch.

I guess, that Haven and/or Manticore will take the solarian ships in exchange for some of their outdated but better than solarian ships and look for any maybe useful mesan modifications on them.

Haven and Manticore Navy ships have a lower crew need what is also important for the torch Navy.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:31 pm

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Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Maldorian wrote:The big question is: "Does Torch keep the solarian ships with the suicide device?"

Solarian ships are obsolete, using them is useless.

Using diffrent tecnologies (solarian, manticorian, haven) is a logistic nightmare.

Are the StateSec ships the current Haven ship modells or deos they have neweer designs? If yes, than a lot of ships to give away for Torch.

I guess, that Haven and/or Manticore will take the solarian ships in exchange for some of their outdated but better than solarian ships and look for any maybe useful mesan modifications on them.

Haven and Manticore Navy ships have a lower crew need what is also important for the torch Navy.


Actually, we don't know if Torch got any SL designs, only that Rosak said he could not explain the Havenite ships away so he gave them to Torch. He could have lost the SL designed CLs and DDS in his OOB, but we never heard official word either way. Only the Havenite ships were mentioned.

And, iirc, in SoS and ToF, the Mars CAs in PNiE hands were referred to as Mars-C, the first time we heard that version. I believe we heard the current version was the Mars-D. The Mars-A have all been refit or retired prior to the end of the first war, due to that wonky fusion reactor. The last remaining Mars-As are probably in Grayson use.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:59 pm

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Maldorian wrote:The big question is: "Does Torch keep the solarian ships with the suicide device?"

Solarian ships are obsolete, using them is useless.

Using diffrent tecnologies (solarian, manticorian, haven) is a logistic nightmare.

Are the StateSec ships the current Haven ship modells or deos they have neweer designs? If yes, than a lot of ships to give away for Torch.

I guess, that Haven and/or Manticore will take the solarian ships in exchange for some of their outdated but better than solarian ships and look for any maybe useful mesan modifications on them.

Haven and Manticore Navy ships have a lower crew need what is also important for the torch Navy.


The RTN doesn't have Solarian-designed ships. They have pre-Theisman/Foraker Havenite (PNE) ships. The only Solarian design that they are close to is the Maya one, which is actually Erewhonese, based on what Erewhon knew of Manticoran Alliance tech. So it's effectively a knock-off of Manticoran tech. As for interoperating Havenite and Manticoran designs, given that duringg the first war both the RMN and GSN operated captured PN ships, that is a solved problem.

But either way I think you're right that long-term they won't want to keep those obsolete designs. A solved problem doesn't mean it's an easy solution. It is still a logistical challenge.

But right now, those ships are useful as training ships. They are still manpower-intensive, but the RTN is growing and they don't have to man the ships properly if they are not going to go into operations. Skeleton or skeleton-plus crews plus midshipmen and ensigns are sufficient, especially if the system becomes defended by missile pods with Mycroft control anyway.

Given just how many friendly neighbours and allies Torch has, I don't foresee the need for them to have anything bigger than a BC. They are at war against the Alignment, but so are the rest of the GA, which are composed of three of the four largest polities in the known Galaxy and five of the six largest navies (RMN, RHN, GSN, IAN, BSDF) -- and there's a good chance the largest polity will join that hunt soon. Torch and the RTN will be tiny compared to the others, but it could be pivotal.

Grayson has shown that a single system can have disproportional presence compared to the big polities, but Grayson had nearly a thousand years of space history, including a navy (of sorts), just needing an update in tech. It went from a decimated navy with no modern ships in 1904 to building the first SD(P) by 1911 to the premier navy by 1919. Torch could replicate that model, though without the pressure of open war I don't see why they should.
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Re: Torch Navy
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:16 pm

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--small snipp--
ThinksMarkedly wrote: Grayson has shown that a single system can have disproportional presence compared to the big polities, but Grayson had nearly a thousand years of space history, including a navy (of sorts), just needing an update in tech. It went from a decimated navy with no modern ships in 1904 to building the first SD(P) by 1911 to the premier navy by 1919. Torch could replicate that model, though without the pressure of open war I don't see why they should.
My thought is that relative to Grayson's quick transition, Torch's problems to replicate Grayson are threefold (a) small population base that (b) definitely doesn't want to be left alone in the galaxy. They're all out to get the MAlign/Manpower etc. from the get-go, so perhaps not the best group to give full up GA technology But my big one is ( (c) the Torch government and RTN need to keep all the polities' in good graces, so the wolf-hunters have to tiptoe for a while yet. SO BCs may not be the best choice compared to a greater number of ships a la the Marksman, Saganami-C style heavy missile controllers that can give any invader the mother of all battles the moment said bad guys pop across the hyper wall or through the wormhole... Which I assume Torch will be fortifying RSN. But that leads to opportunity: those smaller ships with lower crew counts are also ideal to go a-hunting.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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