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Saganami Island

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Saganami Island
Post by BobfromSydney   » Mon May 18, 2015 9:08 pm

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According to Field of Dishonor Chap.7 every Midshipman (regardless of specialisation track) had to qualify for:

Sailplanes
Old-Fashioned Airfoil Aircraft
Old-Fashioned Seamanship

What I'm a bit curious about is:
1. Did they eventually get rid of these requirements to speed up wartime training?
2. When did they change/remove them?

Now I appreciate that teaching these skills would be character building and teach young officers confidence, teamwork, planning, imagination etc.

But it seems that during wartime it would be a bit like training officers in horsemanship and swordsmanship during the height of WWII.

In fact I think you could even make an argument that training in wet ocean and atmosphere would confuse the instincts of those who will spend their career fighting in zero-G (in general, not aboard ship, obviously), vacuum and hyper. Counter argument is that it trains them to adapt to different environments...

Ladies and Gentlemen, your thoughts and information please :)
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by Daryl   » Mon May 18, 2015 9:56 pm

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I'm currently rereading the series (at ART now), and do remember in an earlier book (possibly AAC but could be earlier) it was mentioned that they had to shorten the courses to meet the expanded needs of a much bigger wall. Don't recall any details, but I'd agree with you such nice to have electives would be obvious things to drop off.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by cthia   » Mon May 18, 2015 10:00 pm

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BobfromSydney wrote:According to Field of Dishonor Chap.7 every Midshipman (regardless of specialisation track) had to qualify for:

Sailplanes
Old-Fashioned Airfoil Aircraft
Old-Fashioned Seamanship

What I'm a bit curious about is:
1. Did they eventually get rid of these requirements to speed up wartime training?
2. When did they change/remove them?

Now I appreciate that teaching these skills would be character building and teach young officers confidence, teamwork, planning, imagination etc.

But it seems that during wartime it would be a bit like training officers in horsemanship and swordsmanship during the height of WWII.

In fact I think you could even make an argument that training in wet ocean and atmosphere would confuse the instincts of those who will spend their career fighting in zero-G (in general, not aboard ship, obviously), vacuum and hyper. Counter argument is that it trains them to adapt to different environments...

Ladies and Gentlemen, your thoughts and information please :)

If I remember correctly, old-fashioned aircraft tests and hones their kinesthetic ability.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue May 19, 2015 1:04 am

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Let's just say all the "BS" got deleted during wartime. Kinda like the USA military academys requiring table manners training, ball room dancing, shoe polishing, ironing blouses and trousers, properly making beds with GI corners, squaring away your spaces, shaving twice a day, endless needless showers and etc. up until just recently.

Also perhaps eliminate marching? Instead add much more range time?

While perhaps necessary for all the traditions necessary for maintaing traditions and stuff, all of this stuff and a whole lot more MAY have been chucked out the airlock during time of war. Anythng and everything not essentially needed to properly train the cadets was eliminated. Probably the same thing happens also for enlisted in boot camp?

Wondering how many Honor Harringtons did not go "lifer" because of the BS?

I for one and just me here and going out on a thin limb indeed, perhaps the way the USA selects and academy trains its future officers is dead wrong. How about selecting 100% from currently enlisted personal, preferably with combat experience? Make the officers corp a 100% merit type endeavor. Eliminate the family political connections?

Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by Roguevictory   » Tue May 19, 2015 2:20 am

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Eliminating the political aspects would be good but I don't think going for a purely mustang officer corp would work.

I don't know if such a corps has ever been tried in modern times though. Hell I'm not even certain if its been tried in any RL military ever.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by Fox2!   » Tue May 19, 2015 3:03 am

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How about selecting 100% from currently enlisted personal, preferably with combat experience?


RAH's Mobile Infantry didn't have an "Academy." All of their officers were chosen from the enlisted ranks. Selection required combat experience. Rico's OCS classmate, "Birdie," already had his bachelor's degree before he enlisted, and had his required combat drops "shortly after his eighteenth birthday."

And the "Wounded Lion" before his nineteenth.

I can't think of any real-world military where officers came exclusively from the enlisted ranks. Roman centurions came from the ranks, but topped out at captain or major (O-3/4) equivalent. Tribunes and above came from the equestrian or higher classes.

European armies' officers came from the aristocracy, at least until the equivalent of Sandhurst opened. Pre West Point, Continental Army officers seem to have come from the Militia, or from the planter/trader aristocracy of the colonies, although a few claimed experience in European armies. Naval officers seem to have come from the merchant service originally, or from serving an apprenticeship aboard a warship, before the creation of Canoe U. I don't know anything about how the first Officers of Marines were chosen.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue May 19, 2015 7:07 am

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Fox2! wrote:I can't think of any real-world military where officers came exclusively from the enlisted ranks. Roman centurions came from the ranks, but topped out at captain or major (O-3/4) equivalent. Tribunes and above came from the equestrian or higher classes.

TV Tropes (yes, the Real Life section) attributes systems in which all officers start as enlisted to the militaries of Finland, Singapore, and Israel at least. See: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ghTheRanks

Trying to follow up on Wikipedia has been slow (and yes, Wikipedia itself is imperfect) and I'm likely to give up about now. But the Singapore case at least seems to be more that the enlisted and officer ranks are drawn from the same initial training pool, rather than having officers have substantial experience serving as enlisted personnel prior to officer training.

Some of the BS isn't going to be strictly BS because it serves to condition the trainee to respond to orders immediately and with minimal questioning - something that's vital in the military and godawful outside it. If you can cultivate that more quickly or more effectively another way - or as a side-effect of something else you need to train them to do for independent reasons, like marching or drill once upon a time - then it's BS that should be on the list for tossing. Mere tradition is something to maintain only as a luxury.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue May 19, 2015 4:02 pm

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The US Navy for a while, at least until the establishment of the Naval Academy, was recruiting from the existing US Merchant Marine. If you wanted to be an officer in the Navy, you had to gain your papers and training in the commercial shipping industry and then apply to the Navy.

I don't know how much- if any- there was in promoting from Enlisted Ranks in the Navy at that time. During the Revolution,the naval action in the US side was from people who were in the State Navys or had set out as privateers or under formal Letters of Marquee from European powers. Essentially, to get a ship together or convince a State government to let you use one, you had to already be trained as a deck officer and higher in the commercial shipping trade.

An interesting side piece was that the author James Fenemore Cooper had wanted to join the very early US Navy as an officer and had to sign-on in a commerical ship and learn-work his way up to deck officer. Ultimaly changed his mind about the Navy.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by saber964   » Tue May 19, 2015 9:18 pm

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Okay Prior to the establishment of the USNA, the USN used the midshipman method of training officers. Basically a boy aged 10-12 would walk up to a warship moored quayside and sign up. The boy would then be in training for his officers board for the next 6-10 years. If the middie failed his officers board for the third time he would be given choice leave the service or accept a commission with the USMC. After the formation of the USNA a middie who failed in his 3rd or 4th year would be given the option to complete his schooling but could only go in to the Marines, this lasted up until the mid 1920's.
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Re: Saganami Island
Post by BobfromSydney   » Wed May 20, 2015 3:41 am

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I think there has also been some mention of Napoleon's army relying on promotion through the ranks. Any history buffs here that can enlighten us more?
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