Alliance Demographics

Like many of you, I reread the Honor Harrington series plus some of the side plots in the Honorverse like the Saganami-series. I haven't read the Crown of Slaves series yet, but I digress.

I was rereading the latter half of the HH series, in particular the 2nd Manticore-Havenite War. Can we talk about Zanzibar--in particular the fiasco of 2nd Zanzibar where the system was utterly gutted by Tourville's task force?

In reality there is a clause in the US's NATO treaties that state no US force will be under overall command of another member State's officers. Granted, US units can be attached to member state units/orders of battle, this happens all the time, but overall command is reserved for US officers.

The problem with 2nd Zanzibar is that the RMN force there was under the Zanziban Admiral. Since the Manticore Alliance seems to be a fictional version of NATO, I have to assume that the Manties have similar clasues in their treaties. They are afterall, the most accomplished star-faring navy aside from the Havenites, Andermani, and (on paper) the SL, I cannot believe they would allow their forces to be placed under the overall command of another member state's officer. I can see task forces being placed under (in this case) Zanziban command, but I cannot see the Manties willingly allowing another military's officer to command an entire system with their forces present regardless of rank.

Please note that I'm not debating whether or not Zanzibar could have been saved had the Mantie Admiral been given command. It might very well have been that the outcome would have simply been delayed. Tourville is an accomplished officer and very good at what he does. This is not an attack on either side or their military prowess. Tourville had a good plan; the Alliance gave him a golden opportunity, and he capitalized on both.

I am simply trying to understand the politics involved with the Alliance at this point in the war and what this may or may not mean for the Grand Alliance moving forward in their evolving war against the SL and MAlignment.

Final questions, when are we expecting the next HH/Honorverse book (as in the one that takes us past the culminating events of ART)? I'm dying to read that even more than I am RFC's Safehold series, which is not to knock on a phenomenal work. I started with HH, and I'd like to finish the journey.

Thanks, y'all.

ChronicRder wrote:I have to assume that the Manties have similar clasues in their treaties.

Why? What evidence is there for this? The Manticoran Alliance isn't NATO.

There are a few situations where it's clearly established that the senior allied officer is the senior officer, regardless of the navies involved. Most notably, on Cerberus, when Admiral Harrington of the GSN outranked Rear Admiral Styles of the RMN.

There's also 4th Yeltsin, when the GSN had overall command of system defense forces which included quite a few RMN ships.

This means, of course, that every system with its own sovereign government(and navy) is going to be in charge of its own defense, as its most senior officers will be there. There's an ongoing exchange program at Saganami Island, where officers from other Navies are trained to operate with the RMN and trains RMN officers to work with other navies.

And of course, the RMN isn't quite the uncontested first Navy of the Alliance anymore. At certain points in the recent Honorverse, the Grayson Navy arguably took that place.

Inevitably, politics and diplomacy figures into those kind of things. After High Ridge's disastrous handling of the Alliance, Grantville would have to make concessions to the remaining members if he wanted them to stay aboard.

It's not a problem anymore, as the Manticoran Alliance has been effectively dissolved and replaced by the Grand Alliance - whose only members currently are Manticore, Haven, Grayson and Beowulf.

Final questions, when are we expecting the next HH/Honorverse book (as in the one that takes us past the culminating events of ART)? I'm dying to read that even more than I am RFC's Safehold series, which is not to knock on a phenomenal work. I started with HH, and I'd like to finish the journey.

ART is paralleled and continued by Shadow of Freedom and Cauldron of Ghosts. The next novel probably won't be out until 2016 - and is meant to converge all three tracks back together into one mainline novel.

munroburton wrote:

ChronicRder wrote:I have to assume that the Manties have similar clasues in their treaties.

Why? What evidence is there for this? The Manticoran Alliance isn't NATO.

There are a few situations where it's clearly established that the senior allied officer is the senior officer, regardless of the navies involved. Most notably, on Cerberus, when Admiral Harrington of the GSN outranked Rear Admiral Styles of the RMN.

There's also 4th Yeltsin, when the GSN had overall command of system defense forces which included quite a few RMN ships.
[SNIP]

That's my point, I'm trying to understand the treaty clauses in Manticore's alliance that weren't really explained in the books and there are conflicting situations. I just chose to start with 2nd Zanzibar because that one stuck with me most for whatever reason.

It's not a problem anymore, as the Manticoran Alliance has been effectively dissolved and replaced by the Grand Alliance -

whose only members currently are Manticore, Haven, Grayson and Beowulf.
[SNIP][/quote]

Actually, it still is a potential problem. Not every officer within Manticore and Haven's militaries are ready to bury-the-hatchet. They still have their prejudices and is only natural given their histories. That may ebb with time, but that is one commodity neither have. The last thing the GA needs is for a command crisis to happen mid-battle because some Mantie has a chip on their shoulder and despises Havenites or vice versa. This doesn't mean either of them are bad officers/spacers/Marines, its simply a fact of life and a reality. Its a real-life situation that militaries today deal with regularly.
Who has command and what stipulations are there for putting them in command over a combined force?

My question was more of a politic/legalize general question in regards to how the Empire enters military agreements with its allies in general rather than limiting it to the original alliance, the GA, or some future alliance.

The refusal of the US to place its troops under foreign command is very much not the norm when it comes to alliances. For example, until the mass-mobilisation of the First World War, Britain always had a very small army by European standards since the defence of the realm rested primarily with the Royal Navy. As a result, it was normal for British troops to fight in multi-national coalition armies, frequently under foreign commanders.

BTW, the US policy has, at times, negatively impacted the usefulness of its troops. The example that leaps to mind is the First World War. As the undertrained, underequiped US units arrived in France, it was clear that it would be a long time before they could form an effective army of their own - the first troops arrived in June 1917, but couldn't form a complete division until October. It was therefore proposed that US units be integrated into other Allied formations (probably British, given the common language) - US battalions in British divisions until there were enough fully-capable US battalions to put fully-US brigades in British divisions, then US divisions in British corps and finally US corps in British Armies, until the US was able to field a complete Army of its own. That plan was vetoed for US domestic political reasons, with the result that (with certain notable exceptions which technically violated General Pershing's orders from President Wilson) the badly-needed American troops weren't able to make their presence felt until the last months of the war.

munroburton wrote:

ChronicRder wrote:I have to assume that the Manties have similar clasues in their treaties.

Why? What evidence is there for this? The Manticoran Alliance isn't NATO.

There are a few situations where it's clearly established that the senior allied officer is the senior officer, regardless of the navies involved. Most notably, on Cerberus, when Admiral Harrington of the GSN outranked Rear Admiral Styles of the RMN.

There's also 4th Yeltsin, when the GSN had overall command of system defense forces which included quite a few RMN ships.

This means, of course, that every system with its own sovereign government(and navy) is going to be in charge of its own defense, as its most senior officers will be there. There's an ongoing exchange program at Saganami Island, where officers from other Navies are trained to operate with the RMN and trains RMN officers to work with other navies.

And of course, the RMN isn't quite the uncontested first Navy of the Alliance anymore. At certain points in the recent Honorverse, the Grayson Navy arguably took that place.

Inevitably, politics and diplomacy figures into those kind of things. After High Ridge's disastrous handling of the Alliance, Grantville would have to make concessions to the remaining members if he wanted them to stay aboard.

It's not a problem anymore, as the Manticoran Alliance has been effectively dissolved and replaced by the Grand Alliance - whose only members currently are Manticore, Haven, Grayson and Beowulf.

Final questions, when are we expecting the next HH/Honorverse book (as in the one that takes us past the culminating events of ART)? I'm dying to read that even more than I am RFC's Safehold series, which is not to knock on a phenomenal work. I started with HH, and I'd like to finish the journey.

ART is paralleled and continued by Shadow of Freedom and Cauldron of Ghosts. The next novel probably won't be out until 2016 - and is meant to converge all three tracks back together into one mainline novel.

A good summation; but there is no text that the original Manticoran Alliance dissolved, despite some text in WoH that suggested its military usefulness was at an end; it was as much a financial institution as a political or military one,and its purpose was to build the financial and physical infrastructures of the members so they could defend themselves. The reason taking Zanzibar and Alizon out was because of their financial contribution to the Alliance, not their outstanding local naval forces. Some Textev is provided in HotQ, and the convoy Honor was escorting--not just to Grayson, but other systems also.

As such, in addition to military assistance, they got discounted equipment, technical advice, and wormhole transits; I think the members may well want to remain in some sort of alliance with Manticore, but not the Grand Alliance, which is fighting the League/Malign.

A separate treaty alliance, like the deal with Sidemore, would suit them just fine. Or, like the Andies (against Haven), they would be "associated powers." They might even argue that the need to ensure security against Haven will remain until there exists a history of orderly transfer of power in Haven --a few more legitimate elections, allowing the MA members a half century of best-friend trade status with both.

Given the effects of the Yawata Strike, any financial contributions of the lesser states to the RMN would be a benefit.

Regards, Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A good summation; but there is no text that the original Manticoran Alliance dissolved, despite some text in WoH that suggested its military usefulness was at an end; it was as much a financial institution as a political or military one,and its purpose was to build the financial and physical infrastructures of the members so they could defend themselves. The reason taking Zanzibar and Alizon out was because of their financial contribution to the Alliance, not their outstanding local naval forces. Some Textev is provided in HotQ, and the convoy Honor was escorting--not just to Grayson, but other systems also.

As such, in addition to military assistance, they got discounted equipment, technical advice, and wormhole transits; I think the members may well want to remain in some sort of alliance with Manticore, but not the Grand Alliance, which is fighting the League/Malign.

A separate treaty alliance, like the deal with Sidemore, would suit them just fine. Or, like the Andies (against Haven), they would be "associated powers." They might even argue that the need to ensure security against Haven will remain until there exists a history of orderly transfer of power in Haven --a few more legitimate elections, allowing the MA members a half century of best-friend trade status with both.

Given the effects of the Yawata Strike, any financial contributions of the lesser states to the RMN would be a benefit.

Regards, Rob

I'd always seen the Grand Alliance as an alliance of the Manticoran Alliance and the Republic, given that Elizabeth was bemoaning the lack of time to contact "allied heads of state" (except Benjamin Mayhew) when Eloise turned up on her doorstep at midnight with a treaty proposal.

...excuse me while I swoon over the fact that the last sentence I just wrote actually happened, oh my God, that is a real thing that actually happened, I think I might die...

Ahem. Anyway, my point being, I think the MA (no, not that one, the good one) is still very much intact, just subsumed in the GA.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:A good summation; but there is no text that the original Manticoran Alliance dissolved, despite some text in WoH that suggested its military usefulness was at an end; it was as much a financial institution as a political or military one,and its purpose was to build the financial and physical infrastructures of the members so they could defend themselves. The reason taking Zanzibar and Alizon out was because of their financial contribution to the Alliance, not their outstanding local naval forces. Some Textev is provided in HotQ, and the convoy Honor was escorting--not just to Grayson, but other systems also.

As such, in addition to military assistance, they got discounted equipment, technical advice, and wormhole transits; I think the members may well want to remain in some sort of alliance with Manticore, but not the Grand Alliance, which is fighting the League/Malign.

I think it may be better to say that the Manticoran Alliance existed to defend Manticore and the other states within it against Havenite aggression, and that Manticore had, as part of the effort to create that alliance, a variety of bilateral agreements with the various other states in it for assorted economic ties. The two arrangements in any given case are separable, though clearly related.

With a peace agreement with Haven, the Manticoran Alliance as such is no longer relevant, but the commercial ties Manticore established leading up to it with neighbors would remain. Economically healthy and friendly neighbors remain a national priority. If you're not leaning on them for mutual cooperative military defense, well, you can also cut way back on the specifically military assistance you're offering too.

I don't think there's any particular reason to suppose that NATO provisions insisted on by the U.S. would be paralleled by Manticore in the Alliance. The historical model is basically Age of Sail/Napoleonic Britain, not 20th century United States, and I doubt any sovereign star nation is going to consign right of command of its forces defending its own star system to some other power whenever that other power contributes a single unit to that defense as a price for unified command.

roseandheather wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A good summation; but there is no text that the original Manticoran Alliance dissolved, despite some text in WoH that suggested its military usefulness was at an end; it was as much a financial institution as a political or military one,and its purpose was to build the financial and physical infrastructures of the members so they could defend themselves. The reason taking Zanzibar and Alizon out was because of their financial contribution to the Alliance, not their outstanding local naval forces. Some Textev is provided in HotQ, and the convoy Honor was escorting--not just to Grayson, but other systems also.

As such, in addition to military assistance, they got discounted equipment, technical advice, and wormhole transits; I think the members may well want to remain in some sort of alliance with Manticore, but not the Grand Alliance, which is fighting the League/Malign.

A separate treaty alliance, like the deal with Sidemore, would suit them just fine. Or, like the Andies (against Haven), they would be "associated powers." They might even argue that the need to ensure security against Haven will remain until there exists a history of orderly transfer of power in Haven --a few more legitimate elections, allowing the MA members a half century of best-friend trade status with both.

Given the effects of the Yawata Strike, any financial contributions of the lesser states to the RMN would be a benefit.

Regards, Rob

I'd always seen the Grand Alliance as an alliance of the Manticoran Alliance and the Republic, given that Elizabeth was bemoaning the lack of time to contact "allied heads of state" (except Benjamin Mayhew) when Eloise turned up on her doorstep at midnight with a treaty proposal.

...excuse me while I swoon over the fact that the last sentence I just wrote actually happened, oh my God, that is a real thing that actually happened, I think I might die...

Ahem. Anyway, my point being, I think the MA (no, not that one, the good one) is still very much intact, just subsumed in the GA.

Hi Roseandheather,

If you swoon, plenty of people will catch you!

They might be subsumed in the GA; but in order to get a peace treaty accepted by all the states in the Alliance, the other States need to be notified; if the other States didn't agree with the Treaty provisions, they could reject it, and Manticore would still be obliged to render them assistance. That was the whole reason for Erewhon's departure from the Alliance, that High Ridge's administration acted unilaterally (one might say, imperiously).

Now that the SKM actually is an empire, she is careful to acknowledge the smaller States' sovereignty and their national interests, as well as their national pride.

And, until Spindle, war with the League was just a possibility that diplomacy might avoid; after Spindle, the 800 kilo gorilla of the SLN turned out to be overweight, anemic, diabetic, and subject to all of the difficulties of severe mental retardation. At this point, none of the Alliance members have much to worry about.

However, it is worth noting that none of the minor powers were present at the meeting with the Beowulfers, when the author was introducing the various treecat bodyguards. Which could just be a concession to Beowulf's security.

Rob