2nd Battle of Manticore questions

I don't know if it was covered already (I didn't find the answer, at least) - so here it is.

I've just reread ART, and a peculiar set of questions rose its ugly head: We have textev through the books, that it is possible to determine from which ship in a fleet a person is actually communicating with our own ships (at least that's true for the RMN). So, was Honors part of the Grand Fleet able to determine which of the Sollie SDs arriving was SLNS Oppenheimer, Filaretas flagship?

And if so: would it be possible to adapt the fireplan developed for the battle in a way, that would exclude Filaretas flagship from its effects (and, last but least: could it be done in the available timeframe) - so that our heros could ... discuss Filaretas decisions and the events on his bridge with him and his staff face to face after the battle was over?

The reason I have to ask these questions:
I know, from hindsight it's easy to critisize, but the Manties knew about the ... peculiar circumstances of Crandalls demise months before Filaretas arrival, and after they got the news about the existence of the mesan nanoweapons ... why not put 1 and 1 together? And ask the question, whereelse such a weapon could be used? And what could be done to counter it?

Eagleeye wrote:I don't know if it was covered already (I didn't find the answer, at least) - so here it is.

I've just reread ART, and a peculiar set of questions rose its ugly head: We have textev through the books, that it is possible to determine from which ship in a fleet a person is actually communicating with our own ships (at least that's true for the RMN). So, was Honors part of the Grand Fleet able to determine which of the Sollie SDs arriving was SLNS Oppenheimer, Filaretas flagship?

And if so: would it be possible to adapt the fireplan developed for the battle in a way, that would exclude Filaretas flagship from its effects (and, last but least: could it be done in the available timeframe) - so that our heros could ... discuss Filaretas decisions and the events on his bridge with him and his staff face to face after the battle was over?

The reason I have to ask these questions:
I know, from hindsight it's easy to critisize, but the Manties knew about the ... peculiar circumstances of Crandalls demise months before Filaretas arrival, and after they got the news about the existence of the mesan nanoweapons ... why not put 1 and 1 together? And ask the question, whereelse such a weapon could be used? And what could be done to counter it?

Interesting question, but I don't know if it would have changed anything. There's no way for Honor to have also also said "... and tell all of your people to step away from their panels with their hands in the air so that hidden nano-controlled bad guys don't blow you to shreds!" Given that those folks would also have to use their hands to execute orders to drop wedges, etc.

Honor fire plan wasn't originally intended to go into effect against any SD's. Once the Sollie's fired, tactical doctrine demands that you take out the "head cobra" no matter what, aka in theory the top admiral has the best combo of brains/staff to win the battle and you want those folks out of commission. I'd assume that there was no video feed left once the bomb in the Ops panel went off. Or flag officers, for that matter.

SharkHunter wrote:Honor fire plan wasn't originally intended to go into effect against any SD's. Once the Sollie's fired, tactical doctrine demands that you take out the "head cobra" no matter what, aka in theory the top admiral has the best combo of brains/staff to win the battle and you want those folks out of commission. I'd assume that there was no video feed left once the bomb in the Ops panel went off. Or flag officers, for that matter.

After Spindle the RMN knew for absolutely sure about her technical and tactical supremacy in battle against the SLN. In fact, this supremacy was huge enough that noone on the other side could do someting about it (not even when the SLN-fleet would be commanded by the combined essence of a batch of military geniuses, and even if Filareta was smarter than Crandall, a military genius he was most definitely not). So, for this battle at least you could take an exeption to this special rule. Mind, I wouldn't commend it for future battles, but in this special case ...

My best guess would be that they could have set up a fire plan that minimized the chance of hits against any particular ship. (You could always have a missile lose lock and acquire the wrong ship - so it's not 0%; but minimized)

But I tend to doubt they'd have had a pre-set plan for non-targeting the flagship; and when the enemy launches you usually fire your reply with the fire-plan you have ready.

Although, there might have been enough flight-time to actually update the plan to reassign any missiles aimed at the flagship to other targets - assuming someone thought of it in time. But the normal presumption is that if the flagship fires, following quickly by everybody else, it's because it was ordered. And then you're usually less interested in asking why than in providing a pointed demonstration to the next fleet's commander why that's a personally bad decision to be making.
(But still, it's interesting to speculate about what Manticore might have thought if the remaining bridge crew had been avalible to interrogate)

Eagleeye wrote:I don't know if it was covered already (I didn't find the answer, at least) - so here it is.

I've just reread ART, and a peculiar set of questions rose its ugly head: We have textev through the books, that it is possible to determine from which ship in a fleet a person is actually communicating with our own ships (at least that's true for the RMN). So, was Honors part of the Grand Fleet able to determine which of the Sollie SDs arriving was SLNS Oppenheimer, Filaretas flagship?

And if so: would it be possible to adapt the fireplan developed for the battle in a way, that would exclude Filaretas flagship from its effects (and, last but least: could it be done in the available timeframe) - so that our heros could ... discuss Filaretas decisions and the events on his bridge with him and his staff face to face after the battle was over?

The reason I have to ask these questions:
I know, from hindsight it's easy to critisize, but the Manties knew about the ... peculiar circumstances of Crandalls demise months before Filaretas arrival, and after they got the news about the existence of the mesan nanoweapons ... why not put 1 and 1 together? And ask the question, whereelse such a weapon could be used? And what could be done to counter it?

I don't think it would have been possible to exclude Filareta's ship in the devastation. Sure, it may have been possible to avoid his ship from being targeted, but so many missiles had to be put in space to adequately respond to the barrage of SLN launched missiles, that errant missiles would have taken him out anyways.

And even if that would have been the initial plan. It would have been flushed after their initial response. Remember, after Filareta's folly, the SLN let go of everything they had. "No Mercy and No Manties," kind of attack.

And that type of SLN attack doesn't leave room for congenialities.

Besides, why exclude the main ship firing on you? Remember Theisman's reminder to Honor of her responsibility to her own people? I can maybe see going for some survivors, to ... talk. But you must silence any ship that is firing.

cthia wrote:Besides, why exclude the main ship firing on you? Remember Theisman's reminder to Honor of her responsibility to her own people? I can maybe see going for some survivors, to ... talk. But you must silence any ship that is firing.

11th fleet wasn't completely destroyed. 70 or so of its SDs surrendered after they had seen Honors answer to "Filaretas" attack (We know, it wasn't Filaretas intention to fight, after he was boxed, but the Manties don't - they can only assume, and do so in the discussion after the battle, that a 3rd party was involved, who was the one responsible for the events), and in this lot of surrendered SD's there were even some without any battle damage. But I can't imagine, that the vessels which did surrender did not fire at Grand Fleet, too.

Eagleeye wrote:

cthia wrote:Besides, why exclude the main ship firing on you? Remember Theisman's reminder to Honor of her responsibility to her own people? I can maybe see going for some survivors, to ... talk. But you must silence any ship that is firing.

11th fleet wasn't completely destroyed. 70 or so of its SDs surrendered after they had seen Honors answer to "Filaretas" attack (We know, it wasn't Filaretas intention to fight, after he was boxed, but the Manties don't - they can only assume, and do so in the discussion after the battle, that a 3rd party was involved, who was the one responsible for the events), and in this lot of surrendered SD's there were even some without any battle damage. But I can't imagine, that the vessels which did surrender did not fire at Grand Fleet, too.

Well there you go. Survivors left to talk. Though what they'd know by way of "illumination" is beyond me.

But getting back to whether it would have been known the location of Filareta's flagship. I don't know that that capability exists yet. In the past, when it was known, I thought it was because that particular ship had already been encountered and as a result its "signature" pre-recorded. Remember, even with the Havenites, Honor and other officers would hazard a guess as to the location of an SLN flagship because they knew that there MO was to place its flag on an SD "in the middle" of the formation. It always reminded me of playing Stratego and growing accustomed to where one likes to place their flag. Honor, as far as I know, was the only officer who tended to like to wrap her bacon in a less than optimum package. Which none of her officers liked.
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They certainly had idrntified the flag and excuded it from targeting although it might have been desyroyed anyway. A visit with the ship's captain could have been enlightening.

I have wondered about this myself.

Don

n7axw wrote:They certainly had idrntified the flag and excuded it from targeting although it might have been desyroyed anyway. A visit with the ship's captain could have been enlightening.

I have wondered about this myself.

Don

Wasn't aware that the flagship had been identified. I suppose triangulation of the signal via the Hermes buoys would have yielded fruit, if both legs of the signal could have been passed through Hermes.

But anyways, what could Filareta possibly know? Except for more Manty bashing.