What if: Alternate Universe

Please let me know if this counts as fanfic, I don't think so, but if it is I am sorry:

So, what if The Republic of Haven never entered the socialist nightmare it became, aside from its own daughter colonies, I am sure it wouldn't have expanded very far. The Manticoren Alliance would never have been formed. Greyson may have fallen to Masada via Maccabeus. Talbot would have been discovered, eventually, but there would not have been the same acceptance of the Kingdom to annex them in the face of the Solarian League. The Leauge may have never been called into check. It would have continued unhindered until the RF raise its ugly head. San Martin and the Star Kingdom may have become strong friends, but without the Haven threat there would have been no real need for a military alliance. The Anderman Empire and Manticore would have come to blows over Silesa, perhaps even a war or two.Without the corruption Haven may not have been such a festuring open wound, allowing slavery in. If the market wasn't open Mesa may not have been able to manipulate Haven. Then again if Haven wasn't a growing empire then Mesa would have not had a need to push them into war. Still, if they decided to try, Mesa would not have been able to Manipulate the Star Kingdon and Republic into war as easily. The Committee of Public Safety is unlikely to have come to power. Would the Andermans been a replacemeant? Without the drive of the Havenite war would Manty tech have improved to the level it has? Would the Andi war(s) pushed it? If not, the Mesan fleet, with its Spider Drive, may be near invincable.
There are alot of things, good and bad, that would not have happened, but, in theory, the MA plans would have continued. If so would anybody be in position to stop them?
Thoughts of a morning mind...

Everything changes. Though I tend to doubt that Grayson would really fall to Maccabeus. The assassination of Benjamin likely would have worked. Putting their puppet in as Protector. But I think his attempt to subvert Grayson for Masada was wishful thinking and would have failed. But that's just my opinion.

Jonathan_S wrote:Everything changes. Though I tend to doubt that Grayson would really fall to Maccabeus. The assassination of Benjamin likely would have worked. Putting their puppet in as Protector. But I think his attempt to subvert Grayson for Masada was wishful thinking and would have failed. But that's just my opinion.

Very possible. but the subversion was planned to happedn over a generation or so. Gradual. Probably in a way to make Houseman happy, with trade.

Oakius,

The entire history would be different, because the Mesan Alignment's plans would be very different. The Alignment didn't push Haven into fighting because Haven was getting too big. It goes much further back. The Alignment pushed Haven into becoming a welfare state nightmare, with the deliberate intention of forcing Haven to expand and eventually become a threat to the Solarian League. That was how they planned to cause the breakup of the League.

If Haven didn't become a welfare state, then the Mesan Alignment must have come up with a completely different plan.

I don't think it is possible to infer what would have happened. You're basically saying that history has been completely different since 1680, and the Alignment has been doing something completely different. All we can do is pure unsupported speculation from there.

If Haven wasn't subverted, does the MAlign win?

I don't know, because most of the current Honorverse "war tech" was brought together because of King Roger. Think about trying to go up against battle fleet without MDM missile fleets. I don't think the MAlign would have ever been able to pull that off. I also wonder if they have had as much useful "research material" with which to eventually develop the spider & streak drives.

Grayson wise, without Haven, Masada wouldn't have been in a position to attempt Jericho and "Maccabeus" would have been frozen out longer or discovered, I think. Whether the Mayhews would have been in a position to attract tech from Haven or Manticore becomes an economic question instead of it's basis as a war-fighting ally.

And we'd have a whole lot less to read!

SharkHunter wrote:If Haven wasn't subverted, does the MAlign win?

The question is unanswerable, because if Haven wasn't subverted, the MAlign is doing something different. It's hard to say whether they win if we don't know what they are doing.

SharkHunter wrote:I don't know, because most of the current Honorverse "war tech" was brought together because of King Roger. Think about trying to go up against battle fleet without MDM missile fleets. I don't think the MAlign would have ever been able to pull that off. I also wonder if they have had as much useful "research material" with which to eventually develop the spider & streak drives.

It is unlikely that Manticoran technological developments had anything to do with the development of the spider or streak drives. Mesa had been working on those for a very long time, and it is quite apparent that they have had very little insight into what Manticoran R&D has been working on. Mesa still doesn't have FTL comm, even though Manticore has deployed it for 18 years.

SWM wrote:It is unlikely that Manticoran technological developments had anything to do with the development of the spider or streak drives. Mesa had been working on those for a very long time, and it is quite apparent that they have had very little insight into what Manticoran R&D has been working on. Mesa still doesn't have FTL comm, even though Manticore has deployed it for 18 years.

Also, given the terms of this thought experiment, While Manticore always had "good" hardware historically, it's current qualitative advantages come from Project GRAM - which came into being because King Roger felt threatened by the growth of Haven under the Duquesne plan in the 1840s and 1850s.

So, no Socialist Haven, no Havenite economic issues, no Duquesne plan, no threat to Manticore, no Project Gram, no Ghost Rider, no FTL.

SWM wrote:Oakius,

The entire history would be different, because the Mesan Alignment's plans would be very different. The Alignment didn't push Haven into fighting because Haven was getting too big. It goes much further back. The Alignment pushed Haven into becoming a welfare state nightmare, with the deliberate intention of forcing Haven to expand and eventually become a threat to the Solarian League. That was how they planned to cause the breakup of the League.

If Haven didn't become a welfare state, then the Mesan Alignment must have come up with a completely different plan.

I don't think it is possible to infer what would have happened. You're basically saying that history has been completely different since 1680, and the Alignment has been doing something completely different. All we can do is pure unsupported speculation from there.

I am not disagreeing but could you tell me where it was revealed that the MA pushed Haven into the welfare nightmare? Don't remember reading that, but I could have forgotten it.

SharkHunter wrote:If Haven wasn't subverted, does the MAlign win?

I don't know, because most of the current Honorverse "war tech" was brought together because of King Roger. Think about trying to go up against battle fleet without MDM missile fleets. I don't think the MAlign would have ever been able to pull that off. I also wonder if they have had as much useful "research material" with which to eventually develop the spider & streak drives.

Grayson wise, without Haven, Masada wouldn't have been in a position to attempt Jericho and "Maccabeus" would have been frozen out longer or discovered, I think. Whether the Mayhews would have been in a position to attract tech from Haven or Manticore becomes an economic question instead of it's basis as a war-fighting ally.

And we'd have a whole lot less to read!

Well the tech of the MA was indepently developed, not in conjunction of the war.
As for Grayson, the change over was supposed to be gradual once Maccabeus took over. He and Jericho were 2 seperate indpendant plans, so it could have worked.


Edit: I was pulled away while i was typing this and see my thoughts have been echoed regarding the tech edge.

--snipping--

Commodore Oakius wrote:I am not disagreeing but could you tell me where it was revealed that the MA pushed Haven into the welfare nightmare? Don't remember reading that, but I could have forgotten it.

I don't think we know 100% that it was, but the surmise is "probably", because they now "know" from McBryde's chip and Simoes that the MAlign is trying to do the same thing to the League, and compared to the SL, Haven back in the day would have been light lifting by comparison. That plus the idea that the original MAlign goal was for "Haven to eat Manticore to get to Beowulf" reemerged (with textev) that the MAlign triggered the events that got the RH and SEM to get back into warfighting mode with each other to attempt the same goal.
--self snip--

SharkHunter wrote:...I don't think the MAlign would have ever been able to pull that off. I also wonder if they have had as much useful "research material" with which to eventually develop the spider & streak drives.
...

Commodore Oakius wrote:Well the tech of the MA was independently developed, not in conjunction of the war.

MAlign tech wise, in terms of independent development, that's the "I wonder" item for me. Prior to the FTL com & MDM's, it seems to me that there wasn't as much need for ghost ships, learning to beat those sensors may have led to the tech that led to the Spider, etc. Though I think the Streak drive is likely something that only the MA would have created. Both of those are RFC's "tum tee tum tum" envelope, however.

Commodore Oakius wrote:...As for Grayson, the change over was supposed to be gradual once Maccabeus took over. He and Jericho were 2 separate independent plans, so it could have worked.

Grayson's "future" vs. Masada... The attack on the Protector's family depended on having "off world weapons", so that Jared Mayhew could essentially take over unopposed and then "sell out" Grayson to their enemies. So while Jared & co. had "motive", they likely wouldn't have had less method and little or no opportunity capable of defeating Palace Security.

Plus, There's not even a single shred of an idea that Masadan tech was superior to Grayson's without Haven. In addition to Saladin and Breslau, Haven was seriously upgrading the Masadan war-fighting ability. Without that, my opinion is that the "even tiny" GSN would still have quite thoroughly kicked Masada's butts as they had previous in all actions prior to HotQ.