What if: Alternate Universe

kzt wrote:The plan seemed to be that the SL would have shattered like glass once it became obvious that a) The SLN was incapable of stopping the peeps due to both incompetence and wholesale obsolescence, b) That the corrupt SL government had no willingness to do what was needed to do to protect the SL or reform the SLN, and c) That the various SDFs that the MA controlled were competent and able to stop the Peeps, and if you worked with them they could keep you safe.

You forgot d) the SL government became an instrument of the very excesses it was made to protect against and was willing to ignore the rights and desires of it's members if they ran counter to the SL's course.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:SNIP

Haven had to be rendered unable to avoid being an endlessly conquistador state. It had to become a ravening, unstoppable appetite that could threaten the League but never be an attractive rival.

I see your point and the logic does track. I still would like to see the statment from RFC that was mentioned before. I still think a strong military state that runs head long into the SL would have been better. The RF wanted logical reason to seperate itself from the SL and war with a ravenous conquistador state that threatened them doesn't seem to give them the moral high ground needed to succeed from the SL. Then again war with a militarisic state wouldn't either. I just find it hard to see the logic behind pushing the Havenite into a welfare state. to use as a foil against the SL, except the extreme misdirection, which of course is what Mesa is all about lol. It just seems to risky of a propersition, the who thing could come crumbling down. In fact it did, but it was replaced by a power structure that was worse, is anything, and definatley not better, until genuine reform came with the Theisman coup and Pritchert revival of the Consitution. That could have happened with McQueen, if things had gone differently. Pierre could have done it too, if he hadn't replaced desire for BLS increases with the bloodlust of the mob and the hatred of their class enemies, thank you very much Ms. Ransom.

Mesa is not All-Seeing and All-Knowing. They make mistakes. Mesa decided to do it this way; we could come up with dozens of theories why, but we can't really know what they were thinking three hundred years ago.

For that matter, if Mesa were really thinking logically, they wouldn't have started on this entire quest in the first place. It would have been much more logical to slowly, over the course of the past thousand years, changed the public opinion about genetic uplift through subtle advertising campaigns and targeted control of key political leadership in the galaxy.

roseandheather wrote:SNIP
There was no conceivable way to turn the Old Republic, Péricard's shining interstellar beacon of democracy, learning, and light, into a military, conquering empire. No way. No way at all. The MA had to work with what they had, and what they had was quite possibly the greatest democracy then extant in known space, with an incredibly high standard of living and institutions of learning that rivalled Old Earth. How do you turn that into a conquering juggernaut? You give it no other options.
SNIP

While I follow your logic and chain of events I come back to this part, when you say there is no way at all. I have to disagree.
With the right amount of the correct type of influence you can turn anything into anything. This statement does not prove my point, but there has bee 2 examples in history where states, which were beacons of civilization, became conquoring empires. Both were due to outside influences, and not just over night changes, but it is possible. The earlier of these 2 examples is Greece. Greece was the pinnicle of democracy, espcially Athens, but once Philip the Macedonian, an obvious outside influence, started to conquor them, the began to fall in line. After Alexander re-asserted his control of Greece, after his father's death, the Greeks made up the core of his willing army, marching with him all the way to the ends of India before the refused to go further. Greece was a power house empire, bent on conquoring the known world, granted because it was Alexander will to do so, but they became conquorers.
The people of Haven became dolists because of the climate that was set for them due to the influences that prevaled. The climate could just have easily become that of an empire building state, with the right influences.
Rome is the second example. It was not until the genuine conflict of interest between Rome and Carthage that the Romans had any kind of need for a military. However, once it succeeded in defeating them, the their allies, it continued to battle those around them, in the theory that the more they controled the less threats there would be. he begane conquoring up and down the coasts, even stretching all the way into the Island of Britain. This mighty empire started as a republic and was home to the greatest western philosophers, poets and authers. The Republic was los in the need to defend itself and the success of battle was infectious to the fighters, who continued to pacify the regions surrounds the borders of the Empire, leading to the Pax Romana, at least inside the borders of the Empire, were democracy and intellect still reigned, but was sheltered and spread by the military juggernaut of the Roman army.

So basically, yes I see that it could have happened as you laid out, but I feel you are to quick to dismiss the posiblity of the "Athens of the Stars" falling into a military state.
Based on that line of resoning, which of course is all mine and in my head, I still feel it would have been safer for the MA to have them a firmer military state, then the welfare state it was, to face off and cause crisis with the SL.
Of course, this all says that the MA did cause the the OR to becaome the Peoples Republic, which I still don't think they did.
Then again, I could be mad.

SWM wrote:Mesa is not All-Seeing and All-Knowing. They make mistakes. Mesa decided to do it this way; we could come up with dozens of theories why, but we can't really know what they were thinking three hundred years ago.

Absolutely true, but they had everything else planned out and adapted so well, it seems to me that a welfare state is an inherently flawed state that is bound to collapse on itself. Taking advantage of them is one thing, but I dont see them creating such a flawed governmental system to be their puppet state.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

SWM wrote:Mesa is not All-Seeing and All-Knowing. They make mistakes. Mesa decided to do it this way; we could come up with dozens of theories why, but we can't really know what they were thinking three hundred years ago.

Absolutely true, but they had everything else planned out and adapted so well, it seems to me that a wekfare state is an inherently flawed state that is bound to collapse on itself. Taking advantage of them is one thing, but I dont see them creating such a flawed governmental system to be their puppet state.

Mesa has not had things planned out as well as well as you think. There are dozens of better ways they could have accomplished their goals.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

SWM wrote:Mesa is not All-Seeing and All-Knowing. They make mistakes. Mesa decided to do it this way; we could come up with dozens of theories why, but we can't really know what they were thinking three hundred years ago.

Absolutely true, but they had everything else planned out and adapted so well, it seems to me that a welfare state is an inherently flawed state that is bound to collapse on itself. Taking advantage of them is one thing, but I dont see them creating such a flawed governmental system to be their puppet state.

Remember, the puppet was to come crashing down to. As I understand it (and no, I have no textev to give, still looking for the Haven reference above), A bloated and corrupt PRH was to be brought into conflict with a bloated and corrupt SL (we have seen that the MAlignment is quite capable in this regard) and end up with both of them in chaos and rebellion, with the RF as the bright, shining beacon of hope and rationality.

And WTH; it might have worked, wouldn't be the first time two Empires wore each other down so that a new, vigorous power could replace them (see the Eastern Roman Empire and Persia, both replaced by the Ottomans, for an example).

Thing is, Roger Winton happened, and that (IMHO) made all the difference (and yes, I have become rather a fan of Roger Michael Danton Maxwell Winton, King Roger III of Manticore).

Commodore Oakius wrote:

roseandheather wrote:SNIP
There was no conceivable way to turn the Old Republic, Péricard's shining interstellar beacon of democracy, learning, and light, into a military, conquering empire. No way. No way at all. The MA had to work with what they had, and what they had was quite possibly the greatest democracy then extant in known space, with an incredibly high standard of living and institutions of learning that rivalled Old Earth. How do you turn that into a conquering juggernaut? You give it no other options.
SNIP

While I follow your logic and chain of events I come back to this part, when you say there is no way at all. I have to disagree.
With the right amount of the correct type of influence you can turn anything into anything. This statement does not prove my point, but there has bee 2 examples in history where states, which were beacons of civilization, became conquoring empires. Both were due to outside influences, and not just over night changes, but it is possible. The earlier of these 2 examples is Greece. Greece was the pinnicle of democracy, espcially Athens, but once Philip the Macedonian, an obvious outside influence, started to conquor them, the began to fall in line. After Alexander re-asserted his control of Greece, after his father's death, the Greeks made up the core of his willing army, marching with him all the way to the ends of India before the refused to go further. Greece was a power house empire, bent on conquoring the known world, granted because it was Alexander will to do so, but they became conquorers.
The people of Haven became dolists because of the climate that was set for them due to the influences that prevaled. The climate could just have easily become that of an empire building state, with the right influences.
Rome is the second example. It was not until the genuine conflict of interest between Rome and Carthage that the Romans had any kind of need for a military. However, once it succeeded in defeating them, the their allies, it continued to battle those around them, in the theory that the more they controled the less threats there would be. he begane conquoring up and down the coasts, even stretching all the way into the Island of Britain. This mighty empire started as a republic and was home to the greatest western philosophers, poets and authers. The Republic was los in the need to defend itself and the success of battle was infectious to the fighters, who continued to pacify the regions surrounds the borders of the Empire, leading to the Pax Romana, at least inside the borders of the Empire, were democracy and intellect still reigned, but was sheltered and spread by the military juggernaut of the Roman army.

So basically, yes I see that it could have happened as you laid out, but I feel you are to quick to dismiss the posiblity of the "Athens of the Stars" falling into a military state.
Based on that line of resoning, which of course is all mine and in my head, I still feel it would have been safer for the MA to have them a firmer military state, then the welfare state it was, to face off and cause crisis with the SL.
Of course, this all says that the MA did cause the the OR to becaome the Peoples Republic, which I still don't think they did.
Then again, I could be mad.

I think Oakius has a few good points there. Plus, even if the Alignment had not interfered in Haven's development, the League's creeping expansion would have created a potential military conflict - though it would be considerably later in the Honorverse than the 1900s, PD.

I'm talking about a time when the current Outer protectorates and Verge sectors as far out from the Core as Meyers and Maya finally push through their periods of debt peonage and obtain seats in the Assembly. OFS would be forced to move on even further outwards and some of the best targets would be beyond the Haven Quadrant, as colony expeditions make use of the MWJ to build distance between themselves and the League.

Haven's response to this might mirror Roger III's response to the People's Republic moving closer and closer; a military build-up and formulation of a regional alliance, assuming it had not already absorbed those neighbours in a more peaceful and consensual way.

munroburton wrote:I think Oakius has a few good points there. Plus, even if the Alignment had not interfered in Haven's development, the League's creeping expansion would have created a potential military conflict - though it would be considerably later in the Honorverse than the 1900s, PD.

I'm talking about a time when the current Outer protectorates and Verge sectors as far out from the Core as Meyers and Maya finally push through their periods of debt peonage and obtain seats in the Assembly. OFS would be forced to move on even further outwards and some of the best targets would be beyond the Haven Quadrant, as colony expeditions make use of the MWJ to build distance between themselves and the League.

Haven's response to this might mirror Roger III's response to the People's Republic moving closer and closer; a military build-up and formulation of a regional alliance, assuming it had not already absorbed those neighbours in a more peaceful and consensual way.

For that matter, if they all saw the writing on the wall, given that they're all similar (non-wormhole) distances from the Core, we could have seen an alliance among the Andermani Empire, Silesian Confederacy, the various independent star systems around Manticore, and the Republic of Haven for their mutual defense against the League.

I don't think that would have been quite as good for the Alignment - that alliance may not be strong enough or united enough to give the League enough trouble, and if it did manage it, it could serve as a nucleus for loyalty itself. But it would still be something that the Alignment could possibly massage for its purposes.

What it did do was set up the Republic of Haven as committed to collisions with every power it bordered and as having no powerful allure, and the Solarian League as being brittle but cocky and unable - constitutionally unwilling - to avoid collisions, and also the locus for practically no loyalty. In the end, the League is doing just as they'd like, Manticore is approximately playing Haven's role, but Manticore CAN draw loyalty, Haven can too now, they're allied, they're too well-informed, and they're more powerful militarily than the plan counted on.

They needed two states that are basically enormous panes of glass colliding so they could carefully pick up the pieces and put them back together according to their design (and give Beowulf the finger doing it, what with one of the panes being Beowulf's baby). What they have is an enormous pane of glass - and a well-aimed hammer.

JeffEngel wrote:For that matter, if they all saw the writing on the wall, given that they're all similar (non-wormhole) distances from the Core, we could have seen an alliance among the Andermani Empire, Silesian Confederacy, the various independent star systems around Manticore, and the Republic of Haven for their mutual defense against the League.

I don't think that would have been quite as good for the Alignment - that alliance may not be strong enough or united enough to give the League enough trouble, and if it did manage it, it could serve as a nucleus for loyalty itself. But it would still be something that the Alignment could possibly massage for its purposes.

What it did do was set up the Republic of Haven as committed to collisions with every power it bordered and as having no powerful allure, and the Solarian League as being brittle but cocky and unable - constitutionally unwilling - to avoid collisions, and also the locus for practically no loyalty. In the end, the League is doing just as they'd like, Manticore is approximately playing Haven's role, but Manticore CAN draw loyalty, Haven can too now, they're allied, they're too well-informed, and they're more powerful militarily than the plan counted on.

They needed two states that are basically enormous panes of glass colliding so they could carefully pick up the pieces and put them back together according to their design (and give Beowulf the finger doing it, what with one of the panes being Beowulf's baby). What they have is an enormous pane of glass - and a well-aimed hammer.

This is basically what I was thinking. I think the lack of the Mantie as a primary power would have encouraged the Andies to absorb Silesa, not ally with them, but yeah.
As for Haven, my basic thought is this: if Haven had not tripped themselves up into the welfare state, they woulod have remained the Beacon of Civilization, the Athen of the Stars, and would have rallied the smaller systems to them. I'd lay wager that the Andies would have allied with them against the SL. Thin back to the Travis Long story. When they went to the Havenite ships sale the Havenites were selling it to beef up and protect tis neihbors. They were already on the look out to protect the systems surrounding them. Over the interveneing years, shoudl the fall into the welfare state not have happened, I feel their influence would have grown, enought to rally the local nations into a Havenite Alliance to combat the SL, should it have come to that.
Thien again my idea is mute if it was the MA which tipped the balance of Haven into a welfare state.