Gravitic antitelephone?

Kizarvexis wrote:As I understand it, which is fuzzy at best when you follow the rabbit down the deep math hole, the situation above arises as there is no preferred frame of reference. Every reference frame is equal for participants in those particular frames of reference. What if hyperspace is the preferred frame of reference tying everything together, instead of every reference frame being equal? Would that change things?

Cthia is correct that this is contradictory to Relativistic Theory. However, you are essentially correct. If hyperspace represents a preferred frame of reference, then all the contradictions (and time-traveling consequences) disappear. And that is essentially the way that David Weber is using hyperspace. One of the consequences of this is that the Lorentz transformations don't work, so Belial's initial question doesn't work. That is one of the fundamental differences between Honorverse physics and current physics.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:The answer is that it is quite well known in physics that tachyonic communication implies communication backwards in time. There are numerous scientific papers on the subject. Similarly, travel faster than the speed of light implies time travel. Even the kind of hyperspace travel that is described in the books can be set up in such a way that time travel results if analyzed properly.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Honorverse. Honorverse physics breaks real physics in numerous ways.

Except in certain situations where it doesn't; when it actually results in a halting of time. See Schwarzschild radius of a singularity.

****** *

This is known as Tolman's paradox. And apparently, it is used as a teaching vehicle for first year students of Theoretical Physics.

My niece's professor gave this as a 2-hr in class assignment. (which explains her "You've got to be kidding," sentiment.) He wants to publish my niece's work. By the way, she's taking college level courses while in High School, at 13.

This particular problem is well known to those in the Theoretical Physics discipline. But a formal breakdown can be found at several places on the net. Even wikipedia. Which is why I said, I'd be cheating. Besides, simple Lorentz transformations will catch you much joy. Or a loooooooooong session with my niece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyonic_antitelephone

SWM wrote:A Schwartzchild singularity has nothing to do with traveling or communicating faster than light. It is unrelated to FTL.

You misunderstand. I didn't mean to imply that, only that the mechanics of the physics of what goes on "inside" the Schwartzchild radius has certain implications. Loads of fun. Theoretically.

Star Trek's "Vendetta" uses the same physics when Delcara simply reaches a state of timeless existence. Theoretically.

Also, you must understand that I view all matter in the universe as a communication of information.

SWM wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:As I understand it, which is fuzzy at best when you follow the rabbit down the deep math hole, the situation above arises as there is no preferred frame of reference. Every reference frame is equal for participants in those particular frames of reference. What if hyperspace is the preferred frame of reference tying everything together, instead of every reference frame being equal? Would that change things?

Cthia is correct that this is contradictory to Relativistic Theory. However, you are essentially correct. If hyperspace represents a preferred frame of reference, then all the contradictions (and time-traveling consequences) disappear. And that is essentially the way that David Weber is using hyperspace. One of the consequences of this is that the Lorentz transformations don't work, so Belial's initial question doesn't work. That is one of the fundamental differences between Honorverse physics and current physics.

Ok, getting the layman's explanation of Lorentz Transformations, they were developed because the speed of light is independent of reference frames. So, if light is dependent on the preferred frame of reference, i.e Hyperspace, does Honorverse physics hold together for FTL travel and time dilation of travelling as significant fractions of the speed of light? Or does having a preferred frame of reference mess up physics in other ways as well?

Kizarvexis wrote:Ok, getting the layman's explanation of Lorentz Transformations, they were developed because the speed of light is independent of reference frames. So, if light is dependent on the preferred frame of reference, i.e Hyperspace, does Honorverse physics hold together for FTL travel and time dilation of travelling as significant fractions of the speed of light? Or does having a preferred frame of reference mess up physics in other ways as well?

It depends on what you mean by "mess up physics." Having a preferred frame of reference does indeed eliminate problems of FTL travel, time dilation, and so on. Basically, it breaks the Special Theory of Relativity. But hypothetically, it is possible to have a consistent physics that does not have Relativity. Physics before Relativity worked just fine, as long as you assumed a preferred frame of reference and didn't have any data contradicting it. There are some other consequences, in particular in the theory of gravity. Perhaps that explains some of the oddities in Honoverse gravitics.

SWM wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:Ok, getting the layman's explanation of Lorentz Transformations, they were developed because the speed of light is independent of reference frames. So, if light is dependent on the preferred frame of reference, i.e Hyperspace, does Honorverse physics hold together for FTL travel and time dilation of travelling as significant fractions of the speed of light? Or does having a preferred frame of reference mess up physics in other ways as well?

It depends on what you mean by "mess up physics." Having a preferred frame of reference does indeed eliminate problems of FTL travel, time dilation, and so on. Basically, it breaks the Special Theory of Relativity. But hypothetically, it is possible to have a consistent physics that does not have Relativity. Physics before Relativity worked just fine, as long as you assumed a preferred frame of reference and didn't have any data contradicting it. There are some other consequences, in particular in the theory of gravity. Perhaps that explains some of the oddities in Honoverse gravitics.

SWM and I disagree on certain aspects of FTL, especially as it relates to the Honorverse. I alluded to certain of my disagreements regarding travel through hyper.

In the context of the original problem there is an exchange of information. Two different references, two different worlds. If you indeed follow the physics down the rabbit hole, as I do inside the Schwarzschild radius, the ugly gremlins begin to materialize in the form of quantum entanglements in mechanics. It will all come around to the many-worlds interpretations and other paradoxes. More holes for the rabbit.

But, absent the Special Theory of Relativity, time travel can be made to work in theory - within a very constrained box! However, science fiction, for the sake of science fiction, begins tacking on(npi) other "possibilities" that mathematically just isn't possible, down the rabbit hole.

cthia wrote:SWM and I disagree on certain aspects of FTL, especially as it relates to the Honorverse. I alluded to certain of my disagreements regarding travel through hyper.

I'd like to discuss this further, if it won't bore the rest of the forum to tears.

Exactly what disagreements do you see between us regarding travel through hyper? Or FTL? I haven't noticed any disagreements on either of those.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:SWM and I disagree on certain aspects of FTL, especially as it relates to the Honorverse. I alluded to certain of my disagreements regarding travel through hyper.

I'd like to discuss this further, if it won't bore the rest of the forum to tears.

Exactly what disagreements do you see between us regarding travel through hyper? Or FTL? I haven't noticed any disagreements on either of those.

Of course you remember an area of disagreement. Hyperspace travel is a theoretical construct, relied upon heavily in science fiction. There are varying "distortions" of the physics to explain FTL travel.

It is generally agreed that maneuvering in hyperspace may or may not be possible. You believe that it is possible. I do not.

We both have detractors on our particular view. That's ok.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:I'd like to discuss this further, if it won't bore the rest of the forum to tears.

Exactly what disagreements do you see between us regarding travel through hyper? Or FTL? I haven't noticed any disagreements on either of those.

Of course you remember an area of disagreement. Hyperspace travel is a theoretical construct, relied upon heavily in science fiction. There are varying "distortions" of the physics to explain FTL travel.

It is generally agreed that maneuvering in hyperspace may or may not be possible. You believe that it is possible. I do not.

We both have detractors on our particular view. That's ok.

I don't see any point of disagreement. I never talked about the existence of hyperspace in the real world, only in the fictional Honorverse.

What if the whole "frame of reference" thing was an illusion of perception? Would FTL communication be possible then?



For example, you got a train car. In each end of the train car, you got a high-accuracy clock. In the middle of the train car, you got a device shooting a laser beam at each clock.
For an observer riding the train, both laser beams cross the same amount of space, hit both clocks and destroy them; the last recorded time given by both clocks is the same.
For an observer not riding the train, the train car is moving. The beam shooting towards the back of the car has less space to cross and arrives first, while the one shooting towards the front has more space to cross and arrives second. the last recorded time given by both clocks would not be the same.



However, once the train stops and the outside observer can actually see the recorded times, they happen to be identical, no matter what the outside observer saw happen.

SWM wrote:The answer is that it is quite well known in physics that tachyonic communication implies communication backwards in time. There are numerous scientific papers on the subject. Similarly, travel faster than the speed of light implies time travel. Even the kind of hyperspace travel that is described in the books can be set up in such a way that time travel results if analyzed properly.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the Honorverse. Honorverse physics breaks real physics in numerous ways.

"Relativity, FTL, causality. Choose any two."
Weber chose FTL and causality.