Let's Talk About Love: the 'verse's defining relationships

cthia wrote:What gets me every single time, is the love that an armsman has for their charge.

In particular, Andrew La Follet had a heart wrenching love for Miss Harrington. An armsman forsakes everything and everyone to follow his charge into the jaws of hell. As a result, I shed tears every time Andrew had a chance to reunite with Miranda. That brother and sister duo was just (damn, I need some tissue.)

It is especially sad that both, sister and brother, died.

Mostly I've been happy with David's choices. Not this one. I wanted to get in my pinnace and fly right over there and give him what'fer! except -- *sigh* I don't own a pinnace. YET!!

Seems like Miranda shoulda been allowed to make it, ya think?

Eloise and Javier.

You all knew this was coming.

Look. I can talk about Honor and Michelle, or Honor and Estelle, or Sonja and Shannon, or Eloise and Elizabeth, or Eloise and Tom, until I'm blue in the face.

But at the end of the day, it's the love that saved a nation that will always be 'it' for me.

What can I say about them that I haven't already said, though?

That their love was as crucial to Haven's rebirth as Tom Theisman's patriot's heart or the relationship forged by Lester and Honor during the Cerberus era? That her grief breaks me every time I see it? That I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they can never truly be apart because he will be with her, always, because "death cannot stop true love - all it can do is delay it for a while"?

That they chose to love each other despite the danger - and despite knowing that they were forever living on borrowed time?

That they might just be the single most touching romance in modern literary science fiction?

They are it. They are the star to every wandering bark, the love story of a millennium, and the shape of Haven's future.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:And what love must Grayson wives have for their husbands, being relegated to a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday ... girl.

For what it is worth, they haven't got an expectation of having a one to one match with a man. The expectation is to have one husband and one to three fellow wives. I've no idea what the sleeping arrangements, or sexual ones, are in any case (and absolutely no need to!), but when it's what everyone else in their culture has, what they grew up in, and regard as normal, it's no big thing.

And, looked at another way, if they can't much stand their husband, at least they get to share out the attention.

Flipping perspectives a bit, a Grayson family can be viewed as a bunch of women who select some man to handle the public affairs of the household, which are largely about keeping other men out of their hair.

roseandheather wrote:I support this philosophy with every fiber of my being.

I've always said that my heart is Haven's, but my soul is forever Grayson's. I think I'd be perfectly okay with that sort of arrangement, in the context of the culture and religion which created it.

I also think, cthia, that you underestimate the wives' affection for each other -- implications of socially acceptable female bisexuality and the resulting sleeping arrangements aside, I can only imagine that it would do some people (myself included!) quite a bit of good to have someone to share the responsibility and day-to-day life of running a Grayson household. Just look at Katherine and Elaine if you don't believe me!

I appreciate this post Rose. I have always longed for a woman's slant on this type of thing - mostly when considering polygamy and Mormons. I watched a tv series about Mormons and wondered how each wife would feel as far as being neglected. (The dwindling percentage that still practice it.)

Rose, I recall your alluding to female bisexuality amongst Grayson wives before, and that soothes my concern quite a bit. I do hope that that is indeed the case, as it would divert some of the pressure away from the man, and supplant some of the needs of the woman.

Realistically, biology produces certain needs, and a man with several wives seems problematic sexually. We can't talk about love without considering the related beautiful act of making love and having sex.

Unless Grayson genengineered code includes a high libido as sex slaves(possibly) or a one a day multiple viagra.

I'm just saying. Realistically.

roseandheather wrote:Eloise and Javier.

You all knew this was coming.

Look. I can talk about Honor and Michelle, or Honor and Estelle, or Sonja and Shannon, or Eloise and Elizabeth, or Eloise and Tom, until I'm blue in the face.

But at the end of the day, it's the love that saved a nation that will always be 'it' for me.

What can I say about them that I haven't already said, though?

That their love was as crucial to Haven's rebirth as Tom Theisman's patriot's heart or the relationship forged by Lester and Honor during the Cerberus era? That her grief breaks me every time I see it? That I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they can never truly be apart because he will be with her, always, because "death cannot stop true love - all it can do is delay it for a while"?

That they chose to love each other despite the danger - and despite knowing that they were forever living on borrowed time?

That they might just be the single most touching romance in modern literary science fiction?

They are it. They are the star to every wandering bark, the love story of a millennium, and the shape of Haven's future.

Yes, they did have a very deep, very profound love. And that love saved at least two nations. Not just the one.

Unfortunately, it is the very fact that this was a one in an Honorverse love that makes me highly doubtful that Eloise will ever find love again. Will ever even want to find love again. She was much too emptied from that heartbreak. In fact, I would wager that she really hasn't even dealt with the grief internally, that she just poured herself into her second love - as a respite from the cold, and to pay homage to the love-project that she and Javier shared together, the Phoenix rebirth of the Republic.

I don't see their love mirroring what Honor shared with Paul Tankersley. In the sense that Javier isn't anywhere near as replaceable as Paul. Although Honor deeply loved Paul, I think it pales in comparison to what was shared between Eloise and Javier. But if I'm wrong, I maintain, that the only person compatible to Eloise, out of a shared understanding, would be Thomas Theisman. A possibility that Theisman himself would bog down, because of what the relationship may cause the Republic and what succumbing to said feelings would say about his own duty to his own romantic notions of his own beloved Republic.

So where does that leave Eloise?

cthia wrote:So where does that leave Eloise?

Forever Javier's, of course.

I enjoy the love a father has for his daughter, and the fact that a loving father would move mountains and lay waste to cities to protect his daughter.

Zilwicki and his daughters. And Helen's love for her family.

How sad it was that Anton Zilwicki had to be strong for his daughter while knowing that his wife was dying to save all of them.

Tragically romantic. But sad.

SharkHunter wrote:

cthia wrote:What gets me every single time, is the love that an armsman has for their charge.

In particular, Andrew La Follet had a heart wrenching love for Miss Harrington. An armsman forsakes everything and everyone to follow his charge into the jaws of hell. As a result, I shed tears every time Andrew had a chance to reunite with Miranda. That brother and sister duo was just (damn, I need some tissue.)

It is especially sad that both, sister and brother, died.

Mostly I've been happy with David's choices. Not this one. I wanted to get in my pinnace and fly right over there and give him what'fer! except -- *sigh* I don't own a pinnace. YET!!

Seems like Miranda shoulda been allowed to make it, ya think?

Yes, I do very much think. If just one of them would have survived, then the other would have lived on, in memories. That was a huge pill to swallow. Methinks RFC one tall Tilman too much that night of wielding the quill.

cthia wrote:I don't see their love mirroring what Honor shared with Paul Tankersley. In the sense that Javier isn't anywhere near as replaceable as Paul. Although Honor deeply loved Paul, I think it pales in comparison to what was shared between Eloise and Javier. But if I'm wrong, I maintain, that the only person compatible to Eloise, out of a shared understanding, would be Thomas Theisman. A possibility that Theisman himself would bog down, because of what the relationship may cause the Republic and what succumbing to said feelings would say about his own duty to his own romantic notions of his own beloved Republic.

So where does that leave Eloise?

Pfft. The two of them may go all stupid-noble about it, or stupid-denialist, but any which way, it's going to be stupid-stupid. The two of them just delivered Haven from decades of war and centuries of national slow suicide. If they were caught in public so much as holding hands, the public would be dancing in the streets and shouting obscene suggestions crying for joy.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:
I don't see their love mirroring what Honor shared with Paul Tankersley. In the sense that Javier isn't anywhere near as replaceable as Paul. Although Honor deeply loved Paul, I think it pales in comparison to what was shared between Eloise and Javier. But if I'm wrong, I maintain, that the only person compatible to Eloise, out of a shared understanding, would be Thomas Theisman. A possibility that Theisman himself would bog down, because of what the relationship may cause the Republic and what succumbing to said feelings would say about his own duty to his own romantic notions of his own beloved Republic.

So where does that leave Eloise?

Pfft. The two of them may go all stupid-noble about it, or stupid-denialist, but any which way, it's going to be stupid-stupid. The two of them just delivered Haven from decades of war and centuries of national slow suicide. If they were caught in public so much as holding hands, the public would be dancing in the streets and shouting obscene suggestions crying for joy.

I was considering more of what Theisman's own personal internal rationalization of what he would feel is his patriotic duty. Like Honor, he wouldn't give a rat's ass about what anyone else thought if he couldn't come to terms with it himself.

I'm thinking, he'd be thinking, it would be a conflict of interest. He and Eloise, perhaps, need not mix business with pleasure. Perspective may become clouded then.

And as far as being caught in public, perhaps the man in the street wouldn't mind, but opposing sections of government might disagree. The two together might represent a political threat to the Republic. The Secretary of War, Secretary of Navy and People's President all under one household? If they would ever develop asinine aspirations of a St. Just persuasion, well Haven would just be doomed.

Not saying that would be the case. Rather that certain members of the government would fear just that.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:
I don't see their love mirroring what Honor shared with Paul Tankersley. In the sense that Javier isn't anywhere near as replaceable as Paul. Although Honor deeply loved Paul, I think it pales in comparison to what was shared between Eloise and Javier. But if I'm wrong, I maintain, that the only person compatible to Eloise, out of a shared understanding, would be Thomas Theisman. A possibility that Theisman himself would bog down, because of what the relationship may cause the Republic and what succumbing to said feelings would say about his own duty to his own romantic notions of his own beloved Republic.

So where does that leave Eloise?

JeffEngel wrote:Pfft. The two of them may go all stupid-noble about it, or stupid-denialist, but any which way, it's going to be stupid-stupid. The two of them just delivered Haven from decades of war and centuries of national slow suicide. If they were caught in public so much as holding hands, the public would be dancing in the streets and shouting obscene suggestions crying for joy.

I was considering more of what Theisman's own personal internal rationalization of what he would feel is his patriotic duty. Like Honor, he wouldn't give a rat's ass about what anyone else thought if he couldn't come to terms with it himself.

I'm thinking, he'd be thinking, it would be a conflict of interest. He and Eloise, perhaps, need not mix business with pleasure. Perspective may become clouded then.

Yeah, I was thinking of that sort of thing with the "stupid-stupid" abbreviation. Samantha had to swat some sense into Emily about that so Emily could swat sense into Hamish and Honor about it. I'm confident their treecat bodyguard friends will swat sense into Eloise and Tom.

And as far as being caught in public, perhaps the man in the street wouldn't mind, but opposing sections of government might disagree. The two together might represent a political threat to the Republic. The Secretary of War, Secretary of Navy and People's President all under one household? If they would ever develop asinine aspirations of a St. Just persuasion, well Haven would just be doomed.

Not saying that would be the case. Rather that certain members of the government would fear just that.

I invite them to take it up with the mobs rejoicing in the streets about it. Go on, I'll make popcorn, this should be fun. Those two are too popular and too trusted for that to be an issue. Maybe they don't see it, but others certainly will and some of them may be confident enough to tell the two of them. (It's not a read treecats are likely to be able to make yet; figuring out how people feel based on news and public opinion polls is for them like figuring out how something tastes based on complex chemical analyses would be for us. They just take a lick, but they cannot lick a couple hundred star systems.)

Objecting to that romance would be political suicide in the Republic now. And while it may be something that may be a problem some years down the line, by then (1) it is likely to be a done-deal and taken for granted that Haven gets both of them when it employs one (which is awesome), and (2) each is likely to have moved on from these offices so as to cultivate a routine of the peaceful transfer of power among competing political parties - probably a lot sooner and faster than most people really will want them out of those offices otherwise.