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Mesan Alignment colony ship.

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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:40 pm

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Belial666 wrote:2) Because having several hidden colonies instead of one increases both the industrial base and the total number of scientists I got.


I should think that having a dozen hidden partners on already developed worlds would suit the MAlign better -- they have gone to all the trouble to activate the full Mesan Alliance as a star nation, although not publicly advertising that fact.

You've got a fairly good plan for colonizing, I just can't see how it furthers the MAlign's plans or why the MAlign would spend the additional effort in a direction so divergent from their known plans.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Belial666   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:39 am

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How it would further the MAlign's plan? It would have made taking over the galaxy viable, for one thing.




Forget stealth. Once you have confirmed via Manpower that the rest of the galaxy isn't going to go to war with you for doing genetic experimentation on a large scale, use it for your expansion.

1) The rest of the world can't match your colonization rate. Since they're refusing to genetically engineer colonists they're both limited to worlds that can be terraformed and they got to wait for said terraforming. That's why the diaspora has stagnated after the Final War. Eventually, you will have more planets than any other nation in the galaxy.

2) Genetic experimentation does offer improvement, regardless of what everyone who's signed the Beowulf accords is saying. Eventually, your average citizen will be smarter, stronger, tougher and longer-lived than the average galactic citized. Thus you can expect significantly higher absolute productivity numbers.






After 600 years, they should have had as many or more planets than the Haven Quadrant, each one more highly developed, with higher population numbers and more industrial power.
(Haven was first colonized in the early 14th century PD, too)
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:13 am

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Belial666 wrote:How it would further the MAlign's plan? It would have made taking over the galaxy viable, for one thing.


But their plan is NOT to "take over the Galaxy," it's to "dominate human space." Until the MAlign can take over "human space" there's no point to creating more "human space."

IOW, the plan is to take over the successor states of the Solarian League and all other human star nations. Their intentions are laid out in the initial meeting of the Renaissance Factor and there's no mention of any fallback position or plans for colonization.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:14 am

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The Alignment doesn't need another Darius. They already have their arsenal planet and secret shipyards. What they need is more military ships and trained people to fight them when they have to start active disrupting of the SL with the Detweiler Spider Srive ships and weapons as a mysterious force that provides counter-point to the RF saving the SL fragments and punishes those who want to either do what the RF will claim to be doing or set up their own little empires that will cause difficulties for the Alignment?.

The plan is to convert the rest of Human occupied space to the Detwiler model and control it.
Sending off giant colony ships only diverts resources and people from the plan that HAS to succeed in order to have the Alignment be successful.

And where are the going to be exploring out away from existing Human settled systems that they could send- AFTER they find habitable planets way the hell out and beyond where anyone else is presently looking?
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by The E   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:17 am

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Belial666 wrote:After 600 years, they should have had as many or more planets than the Haven Quadrant, each one more highly developed, with higher population numbers and more industrial power.
(Haven was first colonized in the early 14th century PD, too)


How would you keep any of this secret? How do you convince billions of people across dozens if not hundreds of worlds that taking over the rest of the explored galaxy is a really good use of their time?

The Alignment was able to function because it was a small conspiracy of tightly indoctrinated agents, limited to direct influence on a single colony, and a lot of indirect influence through the Mesan slave-industrial complex.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Belial666   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:41 am

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You simply don't tell them about the rest of the galaxy until you're ready to take over. It's not as if you'll be getting tourists or anything. And when you are ready, you fabricate an incident and have the other nations attack you, backed with the premise that genetic engineering (and thus your whole way of life) is taboo. Your population will rally to protect their way of life and right to exist and stuff.

With the inner layers of the onion controlling the ships (civilian or military), it's not as if anyone can get out anyway. Assuming ~100 hyper-capable vessels per planet, you'd be needing ~30.000 agents as your captains and XOs.

A far more solid and morally correct plan by far than destroying the galaxy from within. Not to mention that a direct conflict would prove the supremacy of gengineered humans once and for all and give you better resources to face the inevitable conflicts and with far fewer points of failure.




Of course, that would require the Alignment to be practical. They really aren't.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by The E   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:38 am

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I think I'm going to continue disagreeing on the practicality of this. You are assuming that, over several centuries and with a population of millions if not billions of people, noone will ever challenge the leadership of this cabal. The Alignment works because it's small, and can maintain OpSec, and what works at Darius may not work at all when everything is spread out over dozens of systems.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Belial666   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:14 am

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The E wrote:with a population of millions if not billions of people, noone will ever challenge the leadership of this cabal



1) Manticoran monarchy. 500 years of ruleship in planet of billions. Mostly good and competent leadership.

2) Grayson monarchy. 900 years of ruleship in planet of billions. Mostly good and competent leadership.

3) Legislaturists. 200+ years of ruleship in multiple star systems. Largely incompetent or deliberately destructive leadership.

4) Adermani Empire. 300+ years of ruleship in multiple star systems. Mostly good and competent leadership.

5) Solarian bureaucracy. 400+ years of ruleship in over a thousand star systems. Gross apathy and corruption quietly induced by outside factors.




I fail to see why the Alignment would fail where all these people succeeded. They are as competent as any as far as organization is concerned, and considerably more competent than most.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by The E   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:45 am

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Belial666 wrote:I fail to see why the Alignment would fail where all these people succeeded. They are as competent as any as far as organization is concerned, and considerably more competent than most.


You do know that the actual politics of those governments varied wildly over those centuries, and that none of them ever had a specific end goal beyond their own continued existance in mind, yes?

Look, in my opinion, human societies just aren't capable of making plans and keeping policies intact over several centuries. A small, tightly organized cabal can maybe do this (although even then I am very skeptical about this; noone can say what will happen to an ideology once it's been through two or three generations of people), but an organization large enough to keep the reigns over an entire honorverse star nation? There's no way in hell that's going to work out.
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Re: Mesan Alignment colony ship.
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:43 pm

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Belial666 wrote:I fail to see why the Alignment would fail where all these people succeeded. They are as competent as any as far as organization is concerned, and considerably more competent than most.


The core of the MAlign onion has indeed survived as long as most of the governments you describe, but that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that in 600 years, the MAlign has colonized exactly TWO systems, Mesa and Darius. (They didn't colonize Congo, or other planets various Mesan Corporations own) The rest of their focus has been infiltration and subversion of other populated systems. They have NOT implemented your colonization plan to date, and there is simply no reason for them to divert resources, at this late date, to implement it now.
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