Are Tincans and CL's obsolete to "modern" fleets?

Theemile wrote: small nit

The number of recognized colonized systems is closer to 5-10,000 systems. The Solarian League alone has ~1800 member systems and between 500 and 1500 Protectorates (the 2nd number has never been stated, but in order for the #s we've seen, it has to be in this range.), so it alone controls almost your 3000 number.

On top of that, DW mentioned once that for every known or significant mark on the map, there is at least 50 others - failed colonies (either dead, lost, or with marginal populations), former mining ventures, abandoned/forgotten space stations (Parmelly's station), pirate waystations, military listening posts, "hidden" colonies, etc, etc.

But still as you say - the number of "freed" BCs will be a drop in the bucket.

Indeed, and I am also beginning to question the assumption that there are 'thousands' of FF BC's out there to do the raiding.

Think for a moment. Meyers Sector had a squadron (at best) of BC's for all it's planets, along with some smaller supporting elements, and in SftS it was mentioned that Byng's deployement of 3 BC Squadrons was unheard of (at least until Crandall showed up). Maya Sector, as far as textev has provided, shows no BC's at all in it's Order of Battle, the most we saw (pre-Erewhon) was destroyers and cruisers.

And at Saltash, Admiral Dubroyna (sp) bemoans the fact that she has only 4 of her BC's as the rest of her squardon is in drydock or on other missions.

I think that due to funding being mainly siphoned off by BF and the corrupt elements of both the SLN and the corporations that support it (think the US Military-Industrial complex run with the corruption level, of, say, Zimbabwe), that BF is much more of a paper tiger than anyone realizes.

And with the order to attack Manty shipping/infrastructure and with revolts and rebellions breaking out right and left and with GA attacks...I think that paper tiger is going to end up...crumpled.

We shall see, eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

SharkHunter wrote:Kingsford's plan, hmmm.

Seems to me like there might be a coordination problem there, followed by a lot of fruitless running around and dead SLN ships.

Here's my logic. Let's say you give the German high command 8,000 WWII U Boats in 1940. We'll have them start at every point on the globe with the "secret plan to go sink all of the American ships". That'll teach them uppity Brits and starve them to death, yada yada yada, and then we'll invade the UK.

But the USN gets to play with all of the Y2K and later current toys, aka satellite imagery, radar, aircraft carriers, the Sonus nets, nuclear attack subs, jet airplanes, smart missiles, and the like.

I'd imagine that a few convoys might get sunk, but that there'd be a whole lot more German submarine hulks that would someday turn into useful reefs or salvage locations all of the oceans where the U-Boats were operating.

You've hit the issue on the nose, Sharkhunter. What Kingsford want isn't going to happen overnight.

The moment Kingsford decides he wants to send those BCs "Close" to Manty space out to do commerce raiding in the GA Rear, He needs to send the message to the BCs, which will take 2-3 months to reach the ships and another month or so for them to form up. Then another 2-3 months for them to travel into their attack area in the GA rear.

Add to this:
1) the entire time they are traveling to station, they are out of communication
2) any communications with them once they are on station have a 4-6 month lag (without the use of wormholes)
3) The SLN will need to send out a fleet train to support the BCs, which will probably add 2-3 months to form and 3 months extra in transit.

So in reality, it will be ~ 1 year between the time the decision is made by Kingston on Earth to conduct raiding in the GA rear and the first major raids. And any of the ships will be out of pocket for almost a 2 year period for any other operations.

Of course raids initiated by local authorites on GA pheripery systems are already happening, but these systems located between the 2 are already ready for a fight (as we have seen) and light raiding of these systems is pointless and wasteful; the raids are not part of any coordinated effort - just the rash of war.

Without requoting theemiles' excellent post above, I would also note that a lot of FF ships are probably in Verge/Protectorate systems on the opposite side of the SL from the Haven Sector, and will have even longer trips to get into positions to do any damage to GA systems/commerce, especially with the wormholes denied them.

Yes, they may try to attack Manty commerce moving into their distant sector via the Wormhole network, but I think the GA will be sending some 'protection' with any of those ships.

Very interesting diversion from the OT. Press on, please.

Theemile wrote:So in reality, it will be ~ 1 year between the time the decision is made by Kingston on Earth to conduct raiding in the GA rear and the first major raids. And any of the ships will be out of pocket for almost a 2 year period for any other operations.

Of course raids initiated by local authorites on GA pheripery systems are already happening, but these systems located between the 2 are already ready for a fight (as we have seen) and light raiding of these systems is pointless and wasteful; the raids are not part of any coordinated effort - just the rash of war.

Fun question, What happens if Commandant Attila decides that the reduced SLN presence and reports of weakness of SLN ships mean he can start empire building? His fleet of 6 CL and 18 DD are the largest in his area, his neighbors think he is full of bombast, but are building forces in reaction. The neighbors appreciate his removal of that pirate nest, but have noted he kept possesion of the system. The local OFS has just been stripped of half their DD through CA, and all of their heavier ships.

I personally do not believe DDs and CLs are obsolete as much as they are limited by the constant flux in the combat enviroment. They can still be a huge asset to any fleet as scouts, raiders and in abscense if any true dispatch boat, as armed couriers . Part of it depends on WHOSE DD/CLs you're talking about.

RMN DD'/CLs - which they Do have other relatively modern designs other than just the Roland. THe Culverin and Wolfhounds are both still combat worthy designs. Against any one elses DD/CLs (well other than Grayson) they'd range from vs the RHN(darn Another tough Manty ship) to Maya( we Gotta make one of those!) to the SLN- (I swear to GOd Admiral it fought like a Battlecruiser not a light cruiser.)

Grayson- seee above

IAN- we've not seen their equivelants..yet.

RHN- it depends. We know the RHN was making new CL
s but there's no evidence beyond that fact.

Just my personal thoughts. Feel free to add 2 bits of your own to it.

Somtaaw wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:I do have to agree with the posters who say that DD/CLs will not become obsolete. Hyper capable scouts to go to a system to see what is there. A 'small', stealthy hyper capable ship to call in units from hyperspace. A 'small' cheap unit to defend convoys from the majority of pirates, who are very lightly armed. Show the flag missions to smaller nations where a larger ship could be seen as a threat. Something has to do that role and while those new ships may be either called DD or CL or both, the role of DD/CLs continues on.

The only problem with "smaller ship not being a threat", is Manty/Havenite destroyers are already the size of everybody else's light cruiser.

Zavala would repeatedly tell multiple Solarian systems he's commanding a destroyer flotilla (and referenced both New Tuscany and Spindle) and the Sollies would keep calling his unit cruiser squadron.

And if you sent Manty/Havenite light cruisers, those have the appearance of being heavy cruiser if not battlecruisers. At that point you're showing a fairly hefty presence... if they were true CA/BC units.

And let's not start comparing how Grand Alliance BC's look to be Battleships, Dreadnoughts are closer to SLN SD's, and GA SD's are massive enough the SLN would have to "create" a new ship class just to define them.

Well, if you don't have 300 kton DDs or 500 kton CL, then you have to send a 750 kton CA or bigger. Even bigger issue for showing the flag than the DD. Not to mention that if the CA is out doing DD work, who is doing the CAs work?

Kizarvexis wrote:
Well, if you don't have 300 kton DDs or 500 kton CL, then you have to send a 750 kton CA or bigger. Even bigger issue for showing the flag than the DD. Not to mention that if the CA is out doing DD work, who is doing the CAs work?

This is true, on the other hand, if I'm showing the flag, with CA's the size of normal BC's; if you have any form of hostile intentions against me, this is going to force you to build a shipyard capable of at least BB's or larger, and take considerably more time to both build, and train. This gives sufficient time between flag show visits to spot what you are doing, because most systems wouldn't think to make a Bolthole solution.

Especially since Bolthole only truly occured to PRH/RoH, because they were locked in a deathmatch with SKM. MAlign has their Bolthole because they had planned for these loose circumstances, and Maya because they saw the SL collapse coming and planned to become a pocket empire.

Nobody else has shown any form of foresight, so other than the few TDY and similar shipyards that had the prestige of building for Battle Fleet (seemingly mostly in Sol system only, and particularly Mars), nobody else known at this time, has shipyards capable of actual contruction of capital ships.

As we're learning from SEM's rebuilding after OB, it's going to take many months to rebuild Hephaestus and sister yards. And that's with experience of construction during wartime, so anybody else (like solarian league states) is going to take years to get full shipyards built. Which circles back to the original point, that if you're showing up with friendly "hi, we're here again, just checking everything is cool" with something the size of a BC, any hostile has to build something big enough, and mean enough to kill you.

And that's still assuming the technology differences never balances out, which further increases your need for bigger units, or hundreds of equal sized units (further increasing detection odds)

There are something like 1800 members of the SL, and thousands of other systems. The odds are that there are multiple different organizations building first line ships.

Somtaaw wrote:Especially since Bolthole only truly occured to PRH/RoH, because they were locked in a deathmatch with SKM. MAlign has their Bolthole because they had planned for these loose circumstances, and Maya because they saw the SL collapse coming and planned to become a pocket empire.

At the moment, we'll probably just get tum-tee-tum, but there was a throwaway line that suggested Parnell was involved with setting up Bolthole before the war. Don't think it ever got followed up on though. Maybe there will be something substantive in House of Lies.

Somtaaw wrote: Especially since Bolthole only truly occured to PRH/RoH, because they were locked in a deathmatch with SKM. MAlign has their Bolthole because they had planned for these loose circumstances, and Maya because they saw the SL collapse coming and planned to become a pocket empire.

Nobody else has shown any form of foresight, so other than the few TDY and similar shipyards that had the prestige of building for Battle Fleet (seemingly mostly in Sol system only, and particularly Mars), nobody else known at this time, has shipyards capable of actual contruction of capital ships.

The Sollies have at least half a dozen mothball fleets. You'd think they'd put them in systems with shipyards capable of building SDs, if only to simplify refurbishing old ships being brought back into service.