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The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign

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The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:33 am

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Sort of combining thoughts from several current and past threads regarding what comes next. Obviously ALL of our guesses, surmises, and tactical thoughts have to get dropped in RFC/MWW's tum-tee tum tum jar until further notice, but heck, we're all aspiring armchair admirals and tacticians, so...

Lotta thoughts in many threads about what the LennyDets (MAlign superdreadnoughts, likely pod-dispensing) are going to do, stacked up against Grand Alliance hardware. Ultimately they obviously HAVE to do that but with Manticore already strangling the Solarian League bureaucratic money source, and with the GA in "missile preservation mode" temporarily, what's to stop the LennyDets or even the Sharks from trashing/destroying most or all of the bigger and known SLN fleet bases and mothballed fleet(s) and just blaming it on Manticore?

Seems like a decently nasty/evil and efficient political approach to making things much, much worse...
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:26 am

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SharkHunter wrote:Sort of combining thoughts from several current and past threads regarding what comes next. Obviously ALL of our guesses, surmises, and tactical thoughts have to get dropped in RFC/MWW's tum-tee tum tum jar until further notice, but heck, we're all aspiring armchair admirals and tacticians, so...

Lotta thoughts in many threads about what the LennyDets (MAlign superdreadnoughts, likely pod-dispensing) are going to do, stacked up against Grand Alliance hardware. Ultimately they obviously HAVE to do that but with Manticore already strangling the Solarian League bureaucratic money source, and with the GA in "missile preservation mode" temporarily, what's to stop the LennyDets or even the Sharks from trashing/destroying most or all of the bigger and known SLN fleet bases and mothballed fleet(s) and just blaming it on Manticore?

Seems like a decently nasty/evil and efficient political approach to making things much, much worse...

I'm not clear on how this would make things worse. Could you explain? It sounds like it would simply make Manticore's job easier, because the League would suddenly be unable to do anything at all to respond.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:27 am

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SharkHunter wrote:Sort of combining thoughts from several current and past threads regarding what comes next. Obviously ALL of our guesses, surmises, and tactical thoughts have to get dropped in RFC/MWW's tum-tee tum tum jar until further notice, but heck, we're all aspiring armchair admirals and tacticians, so...

Lotta thoughts in many threads about what the LennyDets (MAlign superdreadnoughts, likely pod-dispensing) are going to do, stacked up against Grand Alliance hardware. Ultimately they obviously HAVE to do that but with Manticore already strangling the Solarian League bureaucratic money source, and with the GA in "missile preservation mode" temporarily, what's to stop the LennyDets or even the Sharks from trashing/destroying most or all of the bigger and known SLN fleet bases and mothballed fleet(s) and just blaming it on Manticore?

Seems like a decently nasty/evil and efficient political approach to making things much, much worse...

It's not clear, at least to me, that hte Lenny Dets are pod layers. They were designed before the pod layer concept came out. It was stated that they could handle the graser torps internally, but I have always assumed that that meant they were fired from missile tubes.
The argument against the second is that unless you kill everyone in those fleet bases, the shapes and sensor patterns of the Sharks Lenny Dets are sufficiently different from the standard warship, that even the SLN will realize that someone has just hit them with the same weapons that trashed Manticore, and give credence to the GA belief that there is someone out there out to get both of us.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:52 am

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--snipping self--
fallsfromtrees wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:...
Lotta thoughts in many threads about what the LennyDets (MAlign superdreadnoughts, likely pod-dispensing) are going to do, stacked up against Grand Alliance hardware. Ultimately they obviously HAVE to do that but with Manticore already strangling the Solarian League bureaucratic money source, and with the GA in "missile preservation mode" temporarily, what's to stop the LennyDets or even the Sharks from trashing/destroying most or all of the bigger and known SLN fleet bases and mothballed fleet(s) and just blaming it on Manticore?

Seems like a decently nasty/evil and efficient political approach to making things much, much worse...

It's not clear, at least to me, that hte Lenny Dets are pod layers. They were designed before the pod layer concept came out. It was stated that they could handle the graser torps internally, but I have always assumed that that meant they were fired from missile tubes.
The argument against the second is that unless you kill everyone in those fleet bases, the shapes and sensor patterns of the Sharks Lenny Dets are sufficiently different from the standard warship, that even the SLN will realize that someone has just hit them with the same weapons that trashed Manticore, and give credence to the GA belief that there is someone out there out to get both of us.

I think you're right about the impeller sig problem, but you could fake a huge impeller arrival with Manpower freighters hypering in at the appropriate time. Drop in thirty freighters or so to simulate a "mass fleet arrival"; once the graser torps and missiles are ready to fire, move them towards the hyper limit, and at the equivalent long range attack time, ka-boom, then hyper the freighters back out.

Not sure if the LDs's are pod layers either, but given that the Technodyne pods in Filerata's Folly came from somewhere nearby, I'd think that they'd at least have the ability to drop limpeted Cataphract-C based pods.

The rest of my thinking is that We already know that Manticore doesn't really want to attack the whole league, they just want to make sure they don't piss off enough of the systems to cause a Bolthole development process, and Balkanizing the SL is the best way to accomplish that. The MAlign wants the balkanization, but with themselves in charge.

Whether it makes sense to trash the SLN mothballed fleet as part of that process or not is the primary question. At least in the near term, the GA is in "missile preservation mode", so the previous plan of counter commerce raiding went --pffft--, and presumably that includes instructing the forces holding the wormholes,etc. to not go hog-wild using their missiles. Likely the Mandarins wouldn't mind nothing happening for a while so they can get the SLN's heads out of their butts / ostritch-in-sand mode into active R&D and smarter defense mode.

So my logic is that both waiting-game situations make the MAlign's problems much much worse, and even though the wheels are coming off Albrecht's current plans, destabilizing things even further "right now" is the only chance for the RF to take over.
Last edited by SharkHunter on Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:57 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:It's not clear, at least to me, that hte Lenny Dets are pod layers. They were designed before the pod layer concept came out.

You still have not explained why you think the Detweilers were designed before pod layers were invented. The textev suggests that they are a recent design--that's why none have actually been made yet.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:29 am

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SWM wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:It's not clear, at least to me, that hte Lenny Dets are pod layers. They were designed before the pod layer concept came out.

You still have not explained why you think the Detweilers were designed before pod layers were invented. The textev suggests that they are a recent design--that's why none have actually been made yet.

I don't have any textev one way or the other. I was just an impression I got from the description. Given that the Sharks were a test bed for the Lenny Dets, and from the discussion about them, my gut reaction was that they were not pod layers. I am certainly willing to concede that my gut is wrong - Wouldn't be the first time, and with a probability of 99.99999% is wouldn't be the last.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:39 am

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The text mentions that the LDs were designed to tube launch the grader torps, nothing was said about podlaying. Of course nothing was said about the defensive capabilities or any other weapons they would have, only that the were Spider Drive.

So far Manticore hasn't figured out what the sensor readings are for the Ghosts or Shark. They don't even know IF they have any readings from the Manticore sensor/tactical network or any of the ships (or stations or anything else) involved when Oyster Bay happened. Same for Grayson. How do you think the SLN or any SDF within the SLN or out in the Verge is going to find a Lenny Det or Ghost or Shark slinking around in their system.

Remember, the Ghosts and Sharks were hanging around both Manticore and Grayson for months doing the recon and setting up the plots/trajectories for the grader trop and ballictic weapons strikes.
Once ANY reading that anybody thinks might belong to the attacking ships durring Oyster Bay is noticed, it should be possible to scan back for months to see what else like it shows up. Give that you are talking the spherical volume inside (and some outside) the hyper-limit, that is a lot of area but if you are sufficently motivated you will make a start. Ok, any tactical sensor recordings on the three Manticore main stations will probably be gone but that can't be the only place they are getting or keeping system tactical readings.

The Alignment destroying the SLN reserve fleet is mostly just an excercise since the SLN can't see them coming and at least officially the Phantom Attackers don't exist for the SLN. IF (very big IF) the Alignment were to use the first several of the LD's plus the Ghosts and Sharks to hit SL/SLN targets, it would be much more effective to hit things like the headquarters/stations involved with things like Hyperion 1. Command & Control guys. While a lot of the SLN top ranks seem to be idiots there will probably a few of the people in those C&C locations that are smart and adaptive. After all, they are working their way up a tricky food chain. You are also going to want to make it difficult for the SL to take advantage of any of the existing R&D or start building out from things like Cataphracts the Navy already has in at least limited quantities and might not want to depend on Technodyne to produce.

Besides, the idea of faking Manticore and/or Haven warship signatures and blowing up lots of things in the Sol system would probably force the Mandarins as well as motivate the SLN to activly go after Manticore and now Haven again with not much reguard to what is going to happen to the attacking forces. For the Alignment it is almost the best of both worlds. You wipe out a lot of the SLN including-probably- a lot of the better officers below Admiral- and you at least suck the GA down in weapons, particularly the Manticore stuff that really is the cutting edge stuff. You also kill a lot of GA Navy in the process.
While it might boost the SL (Mandarins) in the short term, the eventual realization of how poor the SLN is in relation to so many other Navy's plus the loss of probably thousands of SLN ships will vastly alter the perception of the SLN as deterent for inter-system rivalry. That changes the perception with what people can do and get away with leading to the kind of fracture the Alignment wants for the SL.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:08 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:The rest of my thinking is that We already know that Manticore doesn't really want to attack the whole league, they just want to make sure they don't piss off enough of the systems to cause a Bolthole development process, and Balkanizing the SL is the best way to accomplish that. The MAlign wants the balkanization, but with themselves in charge.


Quite aside from the technical details of the Lenny Dets (which aren't available yet anyway) why would the MAlign do the one thing virtually guaranteed to unite the Solarian League and prevent Balkanization? Sure, it would make things more difficult for Manticore and the GA, but it would also make them even worse for the MAlign.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:13 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:The rest of my thinking is that We already know that Manticore doesn't really want to attack the whole league, they just want to make sure they don't piss off enough of the systems to cause a Bolthole development process, and Balkanizing the SL is the best way to accomplish that. The MAlign wants the balkanization, but with themselves in charge.


Quite aside from the technical details of the Lenny Dets (which aren't available yet anyway) why would the MAlign do the one thing virtually guaranteed to unite the Solarian League and prevent Balkanization? Sure, it would make things more difficult for Manticore and the GA, but it would also make them even worse for the MAlign.
Good question. Except that without Battle Fleet or the ability to rebuild short term, all of a sudden the RF might look pretty darn good. We'll defend you from those dang-neo barbs trying to take over the galaxy! We're the good guys with our SDF(s), sure you can borrow a few ships which we'll gladly staff for you, just sign on the dotted line...
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:57 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
SWM wrote:You still have not explained why you think the Detweilers were designed before pod layers were invented. The textev suggests that they are a recent design--that's why none have actually been made yet.

I don't have any textev one way or the other. I was just an impression I got from the description. Given that the Sharks were a test bed for the Lenny Dets, and from the discussion about them, my gut reaction was that they were not pod layers. I am certainly willing to concede that my gut is wrong - Wouldn't be the first time, and with a probability of 99.99999% is wouldn't be the last.

Actually, I asked why you thought Detweilers were designed before podlayers were invented.
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