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Grav Lance Questions

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Grav Lance Questions
Post by Lord Skimper   » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:02 pm

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We know a bit about this wondrous and often totally useless weapon but there are something we just don't know.

For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.

We know it has an impossibly short range and is often paired with Energy torpedo's and is very hard to use, more than once.

That once time it does work fantastic.

so Questions:

Can a grav lance be used in Hyper Space? What would happen?

Is the grav lance the modern Anti LAC weapon when combined with Energy Torpedo" The Modern Shrike will close to its short Graser range and attack from behind its very strong wedge and side walls & bucklers. Seems a grav lance would remove the wedge and sidewalls / bucklers and the energy torpedo's at that range would wreak havoc upon the LACs.


One would think that Modern Manty EW would allow a ship large enough to use a Grav Lance to get close enough to use it. Seem's the enemy can't stop a single missile. Perhaps the dragon teeth could make multiple ship targets rather than just false missile signatures. A Roland is more than large enough to carry a Grav lance. Could even maintain some of or all off its missile load.

Grav Lance on peace time Patrol vessels. A Kammerling could destroy any freighter but with a grav lance it could also disable any freighter and take the ship with its on board troops. Without damaging the ship or its cargo.

I always wondered why the Slaver Freighters surrender, I mean they are full of Slaves that the attacker/rescuer don't want to get hurt, they just keep running you fire on them you risk killing the slaves they carry. It always seems like the surrendering slave ship is the stupid slave ship. All they have to do is keep running. Impose their wedge on any shuttle and either make you blow them up or let them go. The grav lance solves all of this.

As for why the slavers don't wait till they are boarded then blow the ship up, it isn't like they are going to live through the "rescue" always seems like an odd thing.
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:09 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.


No. It can't.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:38 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.

No. It drops *sidewalls*, not wedges, and only at less than 100k km. This is repeatedly stated in On Basilisk Station.

Is the grav lance the modern Anti LAC weapon when combined with Energy Torpedo" The Modern Shrike will close to its short Graser range and attack from behind its very strong wedge and side walls & bucklers. Seems a grav lance would remove the wedge and sidewalls / bucklers and the energy torpedo's at that range would wreak havoc upon the LACs.

Or you can just, I dunno, *shoot* the things at better than 4 times the range with energy weapons or several times more than that with missiles. Yes, manty LACs are elusive targets, so what makes you think that a grav lance that has been described as 'slow-firing' and 'clumsy' would have any easier time hitting them?

And you don't need this anyway. Remember, even against havenite technology the manti LACs were pretty much relegated to a purely missile defense role once the second war rolled around and their opponents had experience against them. If you're so backwards that *LACs* are an existential threat, then you're fucked anyway and wasting your effort on an anti-LAC 'magic bullet' that is of dubious usefulness even there and is completely worthless against anything else is stupidity of truly solarian proportions. If you need a grav lance to deal with LACs, then you're already toast.

One would think that Modern Manty EW would allow a ship large enough to use a Grav Lance to get close enough to use it.

If you're fighting someone whose ships are so bad that you can sneak a BC-sized ship to within 100k km completely undetected, then you have such a massive advantage that you don't need to waste time fucking around with grav lances and could just blow them away with normal weapons. Against any opponent advanced enough that you couldn't do that, you wouldn't be able to pull off the grav lance trick either, making it again a completely worthless waste of time.

<grav lance for disabling ships>

As noted above, grav lances don't knock out wedges, which you would know if you'd read On Basilisk Station. However, even apart from that, it seems that you haven't read The Shadow of Saganami either, because if you had you'd know that the way that warships would disable a civilian ship that truly refused to surrender is with small-craft or point defense cluster scale energy fire. And if you think a freighter would be able to keep its wedge interposed against both a warship *and* its small craft, all of which are infinitely more maneuverable, all the way to the hyper limit, you're nuts.

And yes, this has the potential to cause a certain amount of innocent casualties on the target vessel. However, when the alternative is to let them escape and deliver their *entire* cargo of innocents back into the slave system, the RMN is willing to accept the burden of possibly inflicting those casualties in order to save as many as possible. As Honor and many others have noted over and over again over the course of the series, in battle people die. It's not their responsibility to save *everyone*, it's their responsibility to save as many as they can.
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:17 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:We know a bit about this wondrous and often totally useless weapon but there are something we just don't know.

For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.

We know it has an impossibly short range and is often paired with Energy torpedo's and is very hard to use, more than once.

That once time it does work fantastic.

so Questions:

Can a grav lance be used in Hyper Space? What would happen?

Is the grav lance the modern Anti LAC weapon when combined with Energy Torpedo" The Modern Shrike will close to its short Graser range and attack from behind its very strong wedge and side walls & bucklers. Seems a grav lance would remove the wedge and sidewalls / bucklers and the energy torpedo's at that range would wreak havoc upon the LACs.


One would think that Modern Manty EW would allow a ship large enough to use a Grav Lance to get close enough to use it. Seem's the enemy can't stop a single missile. Perhaps the dragon teeth could make multiple ship targets rather than just false missile signatures. A Roland is more than large enough to carry a Grav lance. Could even maintain some of or all off its missile load.

Grav Lance on peace time Patrol vessels. A Kammerling could destroy any freighter but with a grav lance it could also disable any freighter and take the ship with its on board troops. Without damaging the ship or its cargo.

I always wondered why the Slaver Freighters surrender, I mean they are full of Slaves that the attacker/rescuer don't want to get hurt, they just keep running you fire on them you risk killing the slaves they carry. It always seems like the surrendering slave ship is the stupid slave ship. All they have to do is keep running. Impose their wedge on any shuttle and either make you blow them up or let them go. The grav lance solves all of this.

As for why the slavers don't wait till they are boarded then blow the ship up, it isn't like they are going to live through the "rescue" always seems like an odd thing.

For one thing the range on the LACs grasers is about 250,000km, and the grav lance has a maximum range of 100,000 km, so unless the LAC is crewed by a complete set of idiots, you will never get your grav lance into range before the graser guts you like a gaffed shark. Again, a misconception that can be cured by re-reading the books with one's eyes open.
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:32 am

Lord Skimper
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Weird Harold wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.


No. It can't.


Hmm that seems to make it a lot less useful. Still it is the sidewalls/bucklers of the LAC that you want to swat.

I guess I got ET and Grav Lance Ranges mixed up. 100k km is pretty short range. still 3-4 times Laser head range though.

I was still thinking that this new modern tech if applied to the GL might decrease it's size Beta Squared nodes increase it's power and the old four x four barrel carb idea to mini fusion power a grav Lance torpedo might work.

An 80000 ton CL (frigate size now) had a grav lance and 8+ Energy torpedoes mounted on it. With the old big and low powered tech. You don't need a BC.

Might make for a good patrol or Torch interdiction weapons platform.

I guess it was the Crippler that worked on civi wedges. One wonders if the Crippler could be made to work on military wedges or if it would bring a hyper sail down?
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by Duckk   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:51 am

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I was still thinking that this new modern tech if applied to the GL might decrease it's size Beta Squared nodes increase it's power and the old four x four barrel carb idea to mini fusion power a grav Lance torpedo might work.


Sigh.

What part of "No, end of story" was David unclear on?
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:26 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:I guess I got ET and Grav Lance Ranges mixed up. 100k km is pretty short range. still 3-4 times Laser head range though.
Pay attention. War of Honor included the tidbit that Andi laserhead standoff ranges were now "fifty thousand kilometers" - up from the pre-(1st)war standard of 30,000 km. (And the RMN didn't express concern that they were outranged, so I believe their standoff range had also been improving throughout the wars)

So back during OBS the grav-lance had 3x the range of laserheads, now it only has 2x. But either way it's irrelevant since a GL wouldn't affect a missile's wedge even if you could get the (clumsy and slow firing) thing aimed and fired in the second or less it takes them to streak across that 50-70,000 km zone.
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:33 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:For instance we know a Grav Lance can drop a wedge.

Weird Harold wrote:No. It can't.


Hmm that seems to make it a lot less useful. Still it is the sidewalls/bucklers of the LAC that you want to swat.

I guess I got ET and Grav Lance Ranges mixed up. 100k km is pretty short range. still 3-4 times Laser head range though.

I was still thinking that this new modern tech if applied to the GL might decrease it's size Beta Squared nodes increase it's power and the old four x four barrel carb idea to mini fusion power a grav Lance torpedo might work.

An 80000 ton CL (frigate size now) had a grav lance and 8+ Energy torpedoes mounted on it. With the old big and low powered tech. You don't need a BC.

Might make for a good patrol or Torch interdiction weapons platform.

I guess it was the Crippler that worked on civi wedges. One wonders if the Crippler could be made to work on military wedges or if it would bring a hyper sail down?

And again with the stupid frigate :evil:
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by MuonNeutrino   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:36 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:Hmm that seems to make it a lot less useful. Still it is the sidewalls/bucklers of the LAC that you want to swat

And by the time said LAC gets close enough for you to hit it with the GL, it's already shot you a bunch with its graser. Unless you're a capital ship, that's a losing proposition, and if you *are* a capital ship you don't need to use a grav lance - SD-grade energy batteries are sufficient to punch out a LAC if you can hit it accurately (and if you can't hit it with energy weapons, you're not hitting it with the GL either).

An 80000 ton CL (frigate size now) had a grav lance and 8+ Energy torpedoes mounted on it. With the old big and low powered tech. You don't need a BC.

You don't need a BC to mount a GL, no. However, as the original Fearless demonstrated, you need something BC sized in order to mount a GL and any other useful weapons payload (energy torpedoes are not useful).

Might make for a good patrol or Torch interdiction weapons platform.

No, an 80kton ship with effectively no armament functional beyond touching distance is not an effective vessel for any combat role. You can see ANY of David's posts on the topic of frigates for that one, and those proposed designs were at least armed.

I guess it was the Crippler that worked on civi wedges. One wonders if the Crippler could be made to work on military wedges or if it would bring a hyper sail down?

No, it wouldn't. The fact that the crippler couldn't possibly work on military wedges due to their basic design was the entire point of that story. And building a weapon specifically for taking out a sail is a completely pointless waste of time given that combat within hyper waves is essentially nonexistent.

Additionally, I personally have my doubts that it would even work on a more strongly built 'civilian' wedge. Remember, civilian drives are built with components optimized for reliability and low cost. Given that they were able to make a civilian drive survive it by simply installing circuit breakers, I have my suspicions that even a 'civilian' style single-layer wedge built with military grade components to a military design optimized for resiliency and redundancy in the face of battle damage might be able to shrug off the 'crippler'. Not that there's much point in wasting all that money to build one against a worthless weapon like that, but I suspect it'd be possible.
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Re: Grav Lance Questions
Post by John Prigent   » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:21 pm

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I sometimes wonder if certain people make this kind of post simply to bump up their posting totals and gain promotions (no, not you Duckk!). I'll stick to only posting when I have something useful to say, even if I never get to Captain of the List.
Cheers
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Duckk wrote:
I was still thinking that this new modern tech if applied to the GL might decrease it's size Beta Squared nodes increase it's power and the old four x four barrel carb idea to mini fusion power a grav Lance torpedo might work.


Sigh.

What part of "No, end of story" was David unclear on?
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