Grav Lance Questions

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:...snip...

Kind of odd to be talking about 'tentatively christening' something that's apparently been in active deployment for 20 years by that point; since this is 1883 and the Homer-class BC was designed around the GL -- and those started entering service in 1863 PD.

Not going to get into when it was introduced but a nit:

HoS wrote:Like the Redoubtable, the Homer-class battlecruiser was built as something of a brawler, mounting an extensive energy broadside, augmented (in later flights) with a grav lance and an array of energy torpedoes for extremely close engagements. Like many Manticoran designs, the Homer’s passive protection relied on sidewalls in preference to thicker skin armor, on the theory that sidewalls could be upgraded more readily than hull armor as technology advanced.

So the Homer was not designed around it.

Going by ship classes and introduction of weapons is problematic.

Normal practices was to have 15-20% in the yards for refit at any particular point figuring a 6 month overhaul that works out to each ship was in the yards every 3-6 years which would give time to do a lot of things. Like fit grav lances. Which doesn't work as well once the shooting starts and minimal maintenance and upgrades are going to done.

Different mind set and I tend to think that HoS takes a lot of averages to get those numbers and capabilities.

Have fun,
T2M

Related Rant...

The HoS data is confusing for the un-initiated (and even so for the iniatiated).

The weapons fit and size is usually what the class average looked like in May 1921 or at the end of their lives (if retired prior to 1921). Flagship units occasionally varied weapons fits from the main ship class, as did different design flights or even developmental ships within flights. Refits may make a design completely unrecognizable from their previous outfitting (like the Ad Astra DNs).

The Accel rates appear to be design accel - not what the class actually were produced with or were fielding in 1921. (this appears to be the opposite of weapons fit)

The Ship Count is complete production #s as of May 1921 - not surviving ship counts, ordered counts, or keels laid counts. A ship completed the day after this deadline (Say May 2nd 1921) is not counted in the total.

Theemile wrote:
Related Rant...

The HoS data is confusing for the un-initiated (and even so for the iniatiated).

The weapons fit and size is usually what the class average looked like in May 1921 or at the end of their lives (if retired prior to 1921). Flagship units occasionally varied weapons fits from the main ship class, as did different design flights or even developmental ships within flights. Refits may make a design completely unrecognizable from their previous outfitting (like the Ad Astra DNs).

The Accel rates appear to be design accel - not what the class actually were produced with or were fielding in 1921. (this appears to be the opposite of weapons fit)

The Ship Count is complete production #s as of May 1921 - not surviving ship counts, ordered counts, or keels laid counts. A ship completed the day after this deadline (Say May 2nd 1921) is not counted in the total.

Ah - I'd mostly focused on the accel info; which I'd determined was design (or possibly initial unit at launch) -- but certainly not 1921 PD values. I'd missed that the armament wasn't also for "lead unit / first flight". So I was erroneously assuming that if the Homer's had GLs and ETs listed that's that's how they rolled off the line in 1863 PD.

(The confusion is probably not helped by the fact that the line drawing seem to be initial design again. For example the Agamemnon-class BC(P) drawing doesn't have a Keyhole; which were included, per the text, with the 2nd unit of the class)

Thanks for pointing that out. That (and the text about the Homer's being refitted for GLs) does mitigate my concern.

Theemile wrote:Related Rant...

The HoS data is confusing for the un-initiated (and even so for the iniatiated).

The weapons fit and size is usually what the class average looked like in May 1921 or at the end of their lives (if retired prior to 1921). Flagship units occasionally varied weapons fits from the main ship class, as did different design flights or even developmental ships within flights. Refits may make a design completely unrecognizable from their previous outfitting (like the Ad Astra DNs).

The Accel rates appear to be design accel - not what the class actually were produced with or were fielding in 1921. (this appears to be the opposite of weapons fit)

The Ship Count is complete production #s as of May 1921 - not surviving ship counts, ordered counts, or keels laid counts. A ship completed the day after this deadline (Say May 2nd 1921) is not counted in the total.

Another note about Ship production #s - that number shown in HOS is only the # of ships accepted into Manticorian service. However, We see new ships built by Manticore for Grayson in Manty shipyards (in the Grayson HoS area) which are not included in Manty Build #s, even though they are of the same class as the Manty ships. (older ships "donated" to Grayson are shown on both shiplists, as they were fielded by the RMN at some point)

Usually these are lighter ships, but Grayson bought new DD, CLs CA, BC AND CLACs from Manticore. How many did Allizon and Zanzibar purchase? Idaho? The rest of the Alliance?

The reason for the fantastic build #s of light ships we saw in 1919-1921, may not be that fantastic, as Manticore only built that series for themsleves. In the first war - 25-50% of Manticore's light unit production may have gone to arming and rearming allies, diverting planned production away from the Manty Navy.

So the build numbers we see may have little connection with the true Manty building potential in the 1st war.

kzt wrote:I have no idea if David is really done with the grav lance, but I found the mention in HoS interesting. There is a very old pearl that said he had something in mind, but who knows?

My feeling is that the grav pulse comm systems are the grav lance technology minturized and depowered. That's what rfc had in mind.

Aygar wrote:

kzt wrote:I have no idea if David is really done with the grav lance, but I found the mention in HoS interesting. There is a very old pearl that said he had something in mind, but who knows?

My feeling is that the grav pulse comm systems are the grav lance technology minturized and depowered. That's what rfc had in mind.

Its certainly possible there's some shared DNA in there.

Setting up a harmonic in a sidewall generator probable does require the ability to (relatively) rapidly and accurately modulate the grav output of your nodes. A requirement in common with the early FTL grav comms (before they switched to using dedicated ever higher repetition rate transmitters)

Aygar wrote:

kzt wrote:I have no idea if David is really done with the grav lance, but I found the mention in HoS interesting. There is a very old pearl that said he had something in mind, but who knows?

My feeling is that the grav pulse comm systems are the grav lance technology minturized and depowered. That's what rfc had in mind.

I am afraid not.

The Grav Lance was basically a oversized and overpowered impeller node or gravity generator system, used as a weapon to blow out an enemies defenses. (Imagine a jet aircraft using a secondary jet engine as a close in weapon).

The Grav Pulse comm uses a different form of gravity wave or flux to create an echo in hyperspace. It has been proved not too long ago that in our universe (which Weber tries to copy in the Honorverse with certain allowances) that Gravity moves more or less at speed of light, so it is not like creating another form of radio or laser transmission since it still goes at the same speed. Instead the comm cheats by creating a pulse in the boundary between hyperspace and normal space where the rules of distance are different, meaning that the gravity pulse can move faster-than-light compared to the real universe. This pulse can be detected at far greater ranges since it travels further and faster than any other form of emission. Impeller Drives create a form of this pulse when in operation, that is why all Honorverse passive sensors are based on Gravity detection (and why the MA created the Spider Drive which does not create this echo).

That is not to say that the research undertaken to create the Grav Lance did not allow Sonja Hemphill to eventually create the Grav-pulse comm, (much like how the drive to create the Atomic Bomb gave rise to much of the early understanding of the makeup of matter). However an FTL comm system, is not a redesigned Grav Lance.

kzt wrote:I have no idea if David is really done with the grav lance, but I found the mention in HoS interesting. There is a very old pearl that said he had something in mind, but who knows?

Aygar wrote:
My feeling is that the grav pulse comm systems are the grav lance technology minturized and depowered. That's what rfc had in mind.

Valen123456 wrote:
I am afraid not.

The Grav Lance was basically a oversized and overpowered impeller node or gravity generator system, used as a weapon to blow out an enemies defenses. (Imagine a jet aircraft using a secondary jet engine as a close in weapon).

The Grav Pulse comm uses a different form of gravity wave or flux to create an echo in hyperspace. It has been proved not too long ago that in our universe (which Weber tries to copy in the Honorverse with certain allowances) that Gravity moves more or less at speed of light, so it is not like creating another form of radio or laser transmission since it still goes at the same speed. Instead the comm cheats by creating a pulse in the boundary between hyperspace and normal space where the rules of distance are different, meaning that the gravity pulse can move faster-than-light compared to the real universe. This pulse can be detected at far greater ranges since it travels further and faster than any other form of emission. Impeller Drives create a form of this pulse when in operation, that is why all Honorverse passive sensors are based on Gravity detection (and why the MA created the Spider Drive which does not create this echo).

That is not to say that the research undertaken to create the Grav Lance did not allow Sonja Hemphill to eventually create the Grav-pulse comm, (much like how the drive to create the Atomic Bomb gave rise to much of the early understanding of the makeup of matter). However an FTL comm system, is not a redesigned Grav Lance.

May I ask where the textev is for this description of the grav lance?

fallsfromtrees wrote:

kzt wrote:I have no idea if David is really done with the grav lance, but I found the mention in HoS interesting. There is a very old pearl that said he had something in mind, but who knows?

Aygar wrote:
My feeling is that the grav pulse comm systems are the grav lance technology minturized and depowered. That's what rfc had in mind.

Valen123456 wrote:
I am afraid not.

The Grav Lance was basically a oversized and overpowered impeller node or gravity generator system, used as a weapon to blow out an enemies defenses. (Imagine a jet aircraft using a secondary jet engine as a close in weapon).

The Grav Pulse comm uses a different form of gravity wave or flux to create an echo in hyperspace. It has been proved not too long ago that in our universe (which Weber tries to copy in the Honorverse with certain allowances) that Gravity moves more or less at speed of light, so it is not like creating another form of radio or laser transmission since it still goes at the same speed. Instead the comm cheats by creating a pulse in the boundary between hyperspace and normal space where the rules of distance are different, meaning that the gravity pulse can move faster-than-light compared to the real universe. This pulse can be detected at far greater ranges since it travels further and faster than any other form of emission. Impeller Drives create a form of this pulse when in operation, that is why all Honorverse passive sensors are based on Gravity detection (and why the MA created the Spider Drive which does not create this echo).

That is not to say that the research undertaken to create the Grav Lance did not allow Sonja Hemphill to eventually create the Grav-pulse comm, (much like how the drive to create the Atomic Bomb gave rise to much of the early understanding of the makeup of matter). However an FTL comm system, is not a redesigned Grav Lance.

May I ask where the textev is for this description of the grav lance?

I came to a similar conclusion as valen.

(1) A Grav Lance is predominantly an engineering system (OBS)

(2) It is volume intensive, requiring the removal of 4 grasers (40cm?) (OBS)

(3) The only war shot we see of the weapon knocks out the wedge (OBS)

(4) Sidewall penetrators for contact nukes operate by "flickering" and reshaping the missile wedge to disable the sidewall (IFF).

All that suggests to me that the Grav Lance makes use of the Impeller Nodes, presumably in a similar method to the sidewall penetrator.

The equipment fitted allows a "spike" to be projected from the wedge into the sidewall, disabling said sidewall. I imagine that some form of the baffle was installed in an attempt to protect the nodes (and wedge) from failing.

Of course, only RFC knows for sure (and maybe BuNine).

Valen, In the Honorverse, it is quite different than IRL. The experiments which finally proved gravity moved at c were not completed or published when David started writing the Honorverse in the early 1990s- therefore, he made it so Gravity propogates at ~64x c in normal space - allowing FTL communications.

Valen123456 wrote:I am afraid not.

The Grav Lance was basically a oversized and overpowered impeller node or gravity generator system, used as a weapon to blow out an enemies defenses. (Imagine a jet aircraft using a secondary jet engine as a close in weapon).

The Grav Pulse comm uses a different form of gravity wave or flux to create an echo in hyperspace. It has been proved not too long ago that in our universe (which Weber tries to copy in the Honorverse with certain allowances) that Gravity moves more or less at speed of light, so it is not like creating another form of radio or laser transmission since it still goes at the same speed. Instead the comm cheats by creating a pulse in the boundary between hyperspace and normal space where the rules of distance are different, meaning that the gravity pulse can move faster-than-light compared to the real universe. This pulse can be detected at far greater ranges since it travels further and faster than any other form of emission. Impeller Drives create a form of this pulse when in operation, that is why all Honorverse passive sensors are based on Gravity detection (and why the MA created the Spider Drive which does not create this echo).

That is not to say that the research undertaken to create the Grav Lance did not allow Sonja Hemphill to eventually create the Grav-pulse comm, (much like how the drive to create the Atomic Bomb gave rise to much of the early understanding of the makeup of matter). However an FTL comm system, is not a redesigned Grav Lance.

WLBjork wrote:I came to a similar conclusion as valen.

(1) A Grav Lance is predominantly an engineering system (OBS)

(2) It is volume intensive, requiring the removal of 4 grasers (40cm?) (OBS)

(3) The only war shot we see of the weapon knocks out the wedge (OBS)

(4) Sidewall penetrators for contact nukes operate by "flickering" and reshaping the missile wedge to disable the sidewall (IFF).

All that suggests to me that the Grav Lance makes use of the Impeller Nodes, presumably in a similar method to the sidewall penetrator.

The equipment fitted allows a "spike" to be projected from the wedge into the sidewall, disabling said sidewall. I imagine that some form of the baffle was installed in an attempt to protect the nodes (and wedge) from failing.

Of course, only RFC knows for sure (and maybe BuNine).

1, 2, and 4, are correct. 3 is not correct--the grav lance takes out sidewalls, not the wedge. But I think fallsfromtrees was asking where Valen got the idea that the grav lance was "basically a oversized and overpowered impeller node or gravity generator system"--at least, that was what I was wondering. That does not match either the text or the infodumps that David has posted on various forums.

The grav lance uses the wedge created by the perfectly normal impeller nodes built into the ship. The nodes are not overpowered or oversized, and there is no mention of a gravity generator involved.