Return Of The Frigate

Spacekiwi wrote:Was thinking both actually. OBS has TWSMNBN as ranged to 100-150,000, and IIRC, thers mention of slightly bigger ranged versions in one of the Jayne sections of the companion books. cant remember which though.

No, I don't believe there is any mention anywhere of longer-ranged grav lances.

Ok. was sure I had seen a reference to it in one of the jayne sections, but perhaps not. oh well.

SWM wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:Was thinking both actually. OBS has TWSMNBN as ranged to 100-150,000, and IIRC, thers mention of slightly bigger ranged versions in one of the Jayne sections of the companion books. cant remember which though.

No, I don't believe there is any mention anywhere of longer-ranged grav lances.

At the risk of utter heresy in terms of yet another look at the "Return of the Frigate", there's an interesting bit in Cauldron of Ghosts about a BSC ship called the "Brixton Comet" -- used to infiltrate Mesa of all places. Granted, the ship has plenty of history as a NON covert ops ships as it's cover, but I' imagine when the BSC is using it, it gains some really sharp teeth. Which got me thinking...

Size wise, the ship is listed as right on at about twice the tonnage of a new build Manticoran LAC, at 45K tons, which is about the same size listed for a Nat Turner frigate, which -- according to earlier pages -- would eat just about any non GA- destroyer for lunch, and even the Nat Turners are scheduled for some rather nasty upgrades from Haven. According to COG, those upgrades are mainly to assist the RTN with raids, with the surrendered PNE ships left to form a small but respectable SDF for the planet as soon as there are enough spacers trained to fight the bigger ships, by the way.

Given that a frigate is given away by it's warship shape, it's a given that it's not a good system infiltrator. But what about a similar size craft purpose designed like a tiny Q-ship to function as an "in system spy and FSC" (forward space controller) with frigate-like sensors and weapons control capability? Yes / no / maybe, duck the noodles?

SharkHunter wrote:At the risk of utter heresy in terms of yet another look at the "Return of the Frigate", there's an interesting bit in Cauldron of Ghosts about a BSC ship called the "Brixton Comet" -- used to infiltrate Mesa of all places. Granted, the ship has plenty of history as a NON covert ops ships as it's cover, but I' imagine when the BSC is using it, it gains some really sharp teeth. Which got me thinking...

Size wise, the ship is listed as right on at about twice the tonnage of a new build Manticoran LAC, at 45K tons, which is about the same size listed for a Nat Turner frigate, which -- according to earlier pages -- would eat just about any non GA- destroyer for lunch, and even the Nat Turners are scheduled for some rather nasty upgrades from Haven. According to COG, those upgrades are mainly to assist the RTN with raids, with the surrendered PNE ships left to form a small but respectable SDF for the planet as soon as there are enough spacers trained to fight the bigger ships, by the way.

Given that a frigate is given away by it's warship shape, it's a given that it's not a good system infiltrator. But what about a similar size craft purpose designed like a tiny Q-ship to function as an "in system spy and FSC" (forward space controller) with frigate-like sensors and weapons control capability? Yes / no / maybe, duck the noodles?

Duck the noodles, or at least "no".

The Brixton Comet is used precisely because it is utterly innocuous in documentation and history and at least very innocuous under inspection. Weapons can't get strapped on or stuffed into nooks and crannies - neither can all the other systems to make a warship, or armed merchant... yacht. The teeth it gets in BSC use are the people inside, the very few of them, without the support for heavy Marine operations like we've gone over at painful length in Roland/Saltash discussions.

You could build something that didn't face much external or any serious internal inspection with a lot better sensors and computer support on a hull that size with civilian particle shielding and inertial compensators as a kind of spy yacht. I suppose it could have some forward fire control virtue, but very little. And it'd go up with a single contact nuke whenever anyone got suspicious about a yacht swanning around a missile exchange.

The Q-ship spy is something viable but constrained. Manticore was consistently worried about espionage in the Manticore system from Junction traffic during the war, but those ships wouldn't generally dare to bring a suspicious sensor suite, and where they could go was strictly limited. Systems without Junction traffic could get suspicious a whole lot sooner and suffer a whole lot less if they got poke-y with a freighter they mistrusted. Ideally, you would want to go with ships with a great cover story for going where you need them to and sensors that are mostly or entirely passive and either very well concealed or supported by very good invisible software or Shannon Foraker to get the very most out of the results.

That's not a frigate by any means though. It's not even a q-ship, as a q-ship is a surprisingly armed freighter used to turn the tables on a pirate going after it. It's a civilian ship used for espionage. It's certainly possible - it's just nothing to bear the sorts of labels you're bringing to it.

@Jeff, similar thoughts to mine in the pastbut decided to put the general idea out there anyway. I reread the tidbit about Haven upgrading the RTN and although I didn't see it first time 'round, the grammar applies the upgrades to the captured PNE ships, NOT the RTN Frigates, so in essence for now the Frigates are the RTN's effective destroyer combatants, given that pretty much any DD that could go toe-to-toe with a Nat Turner are already Torch allies.

But also of interest, Maya and Erewhon are penciling in strategic agreements for mutual defense, and it's rather obvious that Torch is going to be a primary beneficiary. Given that the rest of the galaxy thinks that it was the Erewhonese that smacked the PNE, it's likely that Torch's next move will be to buy similar light cruisers to Rozak's, as those have great degrees of automation AND the ability to control ammo-ship launched missile salvos.

SharkHunter wrote:@Jeff, similar thoughts to mine in the pastbut decided to put the general idea out there anyway. I reread the tidbit about Haven upgrading the RTN and although I didn't see it first time 'round, the grammar applies the upgrades to the captured PNE ships, NOT the RTN Frigates, so in essence for now the Frigates are the RTN's effective destroyer combatants, given that pretty much any DD that could go toe-to-toe with a Nat Turner are already Torch allies.

But also of interest, Maya and Erewhon are penciling in strategic agreements for mutual defense, and it's rather obvious that Torch is going to be a primary beneficiary. Given that the rest of the galaxy thinks that it was the Erewhonese that smacked the PNE, it's likely that Torch's next move will be to buy similar light cruisers to Rozak's, as those have great degrees of automation AND the ability to control ammo-ship launched missile salvos.

Ehhh... Roszak needed ships that he could fake the nature of to keep the League in the dark about what the Maya Sector has. So he's got light cruisers (that can pass as simple light cruisers) for fire control and modified freighters as the arsenal ships (that can pass as, well, freighters, because unfortunately in combat, they are). Torch isn't under that constraint - whatever they have, they can be open about having, though playing tricks with unit identification and ownership is good for them on the operational end.

I don't know that Torch can count on finding targets dangerous enough to require a CL and an arsenal ship to handle, and while the arsenal ship being able to pass for an innocuous freighter may be handy, anything that you would care to deceive would already be scared off by the light cruiser.

On the other hand... a light cruiser like that may be very attractive following Spindle, for system defense. It can control a load of system defense missile pods nearby, after all, and having something like that for system defense would free up the RTN's frigates to go out and poke Manpower wherever it can be found. It would also be a good platform for training new personnel right there, and getting practice operating larger ships - like those they picked up from the PNE. And the modular freighter that's the basis for a Mayan arsenal ship could be a useful operational support platform, for tending and re-ammunitioning roaming frigates, while at least eligible in a pinch for arsenal ship duty.

JeffEngel wrote:snip
On the other hand... a light cruiser like that may be very attractive following Spindle, for system defense. It can control a load of system defense missile pods nearby, after all, and having something like that for system defense would free up the RTN's frigates to go out and poke Manpower wherever it can be found. It would also be a good platform for training new personnel right there, and getting practice operating larger ships - like those they picked up from the PNE. And the modular freighter that's the basis for a Mayan arsenal ship could be a useful operational support platform, for tending and re-ammunitioning roaming frigates, while at least eligible in a pinch for arsenal ship duty.

Given the success that the RTN had using the Hali Sowle as a frigate carrier, perhaps it is time to consider capturing one of the slavers that call on Parmley Station, gut it of most of the slaver quarters, and turn it into a frigate carrier that didn't require negotiation with Ganny El. Since the drive characteristics of the ship are undoubtedly known to Manpower, they should have no trouble getting in close before dumping the frigates and skedaddling out of range of anything else in the system.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given the success that the RTN had using the Hali Sowle as a frigate carrier, perhaps it is time to consider capturing one of the slavers that call on Parmley Station, gut it of most of the slaver quarters, and turn it into a frigate carrier that didn't require negotiation with Ganny El. Since the drive characteristics of the ship are undoubtedly known to Manpower, they should have no trouble getting in close before dumping the frigates and skedaddling out of range of anything else in the system.

Yep. They may also be able to fit frigates internally on a larger freighter with a large cargo bay hatch, which would be a lot better for tending them and deception purposes. A less modified slaver could still be useful for moving right up to a slaving station - and unleashing powered armor sorta-ex-Ballroom troops inside instead of slaves in chains. Surprise!

JeffEngel wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given the success that the RTN had using the Hali Sowle as a frigate carrier, perhaps it is time to consider capturing one of the slavers that call on Parmley Station, gut it of most of the slaver quarters, and turn it into a frigate carrier that didn't require negotiation with Ganny El. Since the drive characteristics of the ship are undoubtedly known to Manpower, they should have no trouble getting in close before dumping the frigates and skedaddling out of range of anything else in the system.

Yep. They may also be able to fit frigates internally on a larger freighter with a large cargo bay hatch, which would be a lot better for tending them and deception purposes. A less modified slaver could still be useful for moving right up to a slaving station - and unleashing powered armor sorta-ex-Ballroom troops inside instead of slaves in chains. Surprise!

And it lets Manpower/Jessyk pay for most of the ships they need - bonus points.

fallsfromtrees wrote:And it lets Manpower/Jessyk pay for most of the ships they need - bonus points.

Yeah, that is nice, especially with Ganny El's mad marauders having just taken possession of Balcescu Station, which is a major Manpower depot in that neck of the woods. The surrendered crew of which has already recognized that alot of the crews on the Manpower ships were acting weird. Be right neighborly of them Torchese to offer to crew those captured freighters for a while, at least a half a dozen or so. No worries either, we won't be transporting human "cargo" as much, just a few "crew members" like lost little lambs needing to go home.

Of course I might be wrong. Them lambs might be wolves.