Why would the RMN bother with any new ship designs...

tonyz wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Given that this [SL early FTL communications experimentation] was in 1911 PD (HH timeline from the infodumps), either the SL scientific establishment is so incompetent that they can't generate at least a first generation FTL transmitter in 11 years, or they have never bothered to tell the fleet that they have cracked it on the grounds that they can't see any possible use for it. Certainly, it shouldn't be coming as such a surprise to the SLN that such a thing is possible.

We've seen much evidence that the SLN's methods of technical and intelligence evaluation are horrifically bad, and have been for decades if not centuries. Plus its shipbuilding wing is incredibly conservative and mostly locked into very slight evolutionary changes with a heaping side order of "looking sexy for the taxpayers".

But the SLN's intelligence wing and its shipbuilding wing are not the same thing, and the SLN is not the entire scientific establishment of the SL. It's very possible that quite a few people in quite a few places have Things In The Pipeline that we just haven't seen yet, or that have been proposed but are still under evaluation, or that the shipbuilding guys are trying to figure out how to bribe someone to use their version instead of their competitor's version...

And if ONI's masters don't like the sound of something, it doesn't get out to the fleet. The League as a whole has a fine tech base and R&D establishment. It's just that the League's military hasn't got the interest in changing anything or hearing that it has vital reasons to change. (Plus, the League has only a wee bit of the funds the League's systems produce, the SLN has only a wee bit of that, and procurement and testing has only a wee bit of that.)

So there's just not much of a market in the League for turning theory into naval hardware. Or there hasn't been. Now there is, but it's too late for the League. For the, say, ten Republics of Haven that may fall out of it, that'll be a booming business.

Certainly Manticore is justified in worrying about the issue. And who knows what some of the SDFs have been quietly thinking about while the Invincible SLN continues to filter out the evidence?

It's curious, yes. They - various SDF's - have had observers around for the Havenite Wars and don't have the SLN's institutional blindness. So the fact that the SLN became target drones with thousands of people obliviously inside them years ago isn't a surprise for them, unless (which is somewhat plausible) their heads just reject the step in the argument that concludes the SLN isn't invincible at all.

And with RF systems likely ones that have had reasonable and vigorous SDF's, you'd think they'd have already been fair conduits for the Alignment on the state of hardware out there. I wonder if the Alignment has suffered any institutional blindness of its own, thinking that it would certainly be able to develop more or less on its own more of Manticore's toy box as a better method than stealing it, because, after all, they've got genetically engineered supergeniuses at work on it.

Also note that the Mesan Alignment has been looking into things for a while but still hasn't fundamentally cracked the main issues for the MDM or high-bandwidth FTL transmission, and they've deliberately been looking for gamechangers. Manticore has a two-decade lead on deployment, but more like a five-decade lead on basic R&D, and there are probably some issues that need to be mastered before you can even try to deal with other issues.

I wouldn't put it that way. The general tech base Manticore has isn't ahead of what the League has - where you're taking that general tech base to include everything, not just military technology. What Manticore has is a hearty lead in taking theoretical possibilities and turning them into completed, deployed systems, and putting them together into well-designed units and well-considered and practiced tactics. Further behind the League/Manticore general tech base, Grayson and Haven have been working up similar skills.

There hasn't been any similar organ in the Solarian League for that. ONI's been a cheerleading service for centuries; Battle Fleet doesn't have to practice or think hard about actual fighting; the shipbuilding forces for the SLN are dinky just because they haven't needed the Fleet in centuries.

The League's SDF's haven't suffered the SLN's institutional arrogance, but they've felt even less pressure to so much as exist. I do think they're going to be in better positions, the best of them, to develop an innovative professional ethic and skill set, but that's not saying much.

The Alignment's had the knowledge of what's been coming, more than anyone else but a handful of clear-sighted individuals (Honor Alexander-Harrington, Thomas Theisman, a few people on Beowulf) and if they've got any genetic superiority chips on their shoulders, it's chump change compared to what the SLN's leadership has had. But for all their fingers in the shadows and ears on secrets, they haven't had the access to good ideas popping up anywhere in public that Manticore has had courtesy of the merchant marine full of reserve navy officers, nor the experience of turning ideas into hardware into practice that the RMN, GSN, and RHN have had and dealing with the other side doing that in response. I think they've got some theoretical idea of the use of that but that's not the same as a first-hand appreciation. And they've just misplaced one of their key students of modern warfare, Gail Weiss. (Bwhahahaha!) I'm not sure what they really had in mind to do with Leonard Detweilers other than Oyster Bay; they're fools if they think they can get away with that often; and they or their lackeys are likely to have too much use for a genuine wall of battle that they don't much have now that they're suffering some exposure.

kzt wrote:

Zakharra wrote:So any new developments in ship development and tactics are going to be steered to being able to survive that kind of missile heavy battlefield.

The obvious tactic is to never go anywhere that you can't immediately escape to hyper. This means pushing forward advanced recon/guidance drones then using Apollo with long ballistic phases from the ships outside the hyperlimit.

Assuming the system in not in a grav wave, could defenders have system defense pods in the alpha band in hyperspace (along with spotters for them) to nail attackers that enter hyper (or lurk there) fleeing from an oncoming missile wave?

JeffEngel wrote:

tonyz wrote:Also note that the Mesan Alignment has been looking into things for a while but still hasn't fundamentally cracked the main issues for the MDM or high-bandwidth FTL transmission, and they've deliberately been looking for gamechangers. Manticore has a two-decade lead on deployment, but more like a five-decade lead on basic R&D, and there are probably some issues that need to be mastered before you can even try to deal with other issues.

I wouldn't put it that way. The general tech base Manticore has isn't ahead of what the League has - where you're taking that general tech base to include everything, not just military technology. What Manticore has is a hearty lead in taking theoretical possibilities and turning them into completed, deployed systems, and putting them together into well-designed units and well-considered and practiced tactics. Further behind the League/Manticore general tech base, Grayson and Haven have been working up similar skills.

You've definitely got a point about the general R&D that League member worlds have. Now whether any of them (or even any of the MAlign) had cut into the lead Manticore had on engineering R&D (as opposed to basic science) on the grav phenominon that give them microfusion power plants and small, high-bandwidth, FTL com links is an interesting question.

But even the SLN, as obsolete as it's ships have become, still has the occasional odd note of tech competence.

Looking something up recently due to another thread I (finally) noticed that Torch of Freedom showed that the SLN anti-ship missiles actually have better acceleration, by about 3.5% than any anti-ship missile Manticore or Haven have.


Sure because they're single drive missiles those Javelin's are out-classed by the ERMs, DDMs, and MDMs, deployed by the GA. But the basic 60/180 second drive node the League's missile provider is using is better than even the ones used in Manticoran DDMs/MDMs. Once the League figures out the "baffle" trick their missiles will be quicker (and therefore with a marginally better powered range) than current RMN Mk23s - and the "CM drive" on the Cataphract has the same extended 75 second run time as the very latest (post Sidemore) Manti CMs. Figure out how to apply that longer node life to the Javelin's drives and you've got an ERM that now (again marginally) out-ranges and out accelerates the ones carried by Wolfhounds, Avalons, and Sag-Bs.
(Edit - but you may need nodes with greater than the 75s/225s extended runtime that seems common. The mk14 range numbers from WoH seem to hint that it needs more powered time than that. If so a 225s @ 50% power SLN missile could have marginally better accel and still come up shirt on range compared to the RMN ERMs)

Now that one spot of technical advantage doesn't make up for all the other problems with SLN missile combat (too few tubes; truely glacial cycle times on both offensive and defensive tubes; poor ECM programs, etc) But it was interesting to see one little (if currently meaningless) area where they outdid Manticore.

fallsfromtrees wrote:While rereading IEH, I cam across this little bit:

Equally apparently, the leak in the embargo spurted both ways, for a source within the League Navy reported that the League's R&D types were now experimenting with their own version of the short-range FTL com system which was one of the RMN's most valuable tactical advantages. Their success was extremely limited to date, but they were headed in the right direction, and the progress they'd made, not to mention the basic concepts upon which their efforts appeared to be based, suggested that someone had been sharing data with them. It was always possible that an agent within the Allies' own military had passed the information on, but the Peeps, who'd seen the system in action and undoubtedly had sensor readings on it (not to mention the possibility that they might have captured a transmitter sufficiently intact to permit them to reverse-engineer it), were more likely suspects. And if they could, in fact, provide information to help the League develop that sort of capability, then a quid pro quo that sent more capable military hardware back to Haven in return would seem only fair.

Given that this was in 1911 PD (HH timeline from the infodumps), either the SL scientific establishment is so incompetent that they can't generate at least a first generation FTL transmitter in 11 years, or they have never bothered to tell the fleet that they have cracked it on the grounds that they can't see any possible use for it. Certainly, it shouldn't be coming as such a surprise to the SLN that such a thing is possible.

Adm Joseph Byng provided a somewhat more recent perspective on SLN FTL Research just before his demise in late 1921 PD:

He brushed that thought firmly aside. There'd be time enough to worry about it later; right now he needed to concentrate on the matter at hand, and he tried—really tried—to consider Mizawa's preposterous notion dispassionately. But no matter how hard he tried, it remained just that: preposterous.

R&D was beginning to experiment with the same FTL technology back home, and unlike many of his fellows, Byng had made it a point to follow at least the unclassified aspects of their efforts. According to them, just the power storage any grav-pulse installation would have required would have been impossible to fit into any drone-sized platform. And that completely ignored the fact that actually generating the pulse in the first place took the equivalent of an all-up impeller node, many times the size of any recon drone ever built!

"I appreciate the warning, Captain," he said after a few moments, choosing his words with some care as he spoke for the benefit of the flag bridge recorders, "but I strongly suspect that the reports about faster-than-light recon drone transmissions have . . . grown in the telling, let's say. As you may know, our own research people"—by which, of course, he meant Battle Fleet's researchers—"have been looking into this alleged capability of the Manties. Our own R and D indicates that it probably is possible, at least on the level of gross communication, but the sort of bandwidth which would be required for any useful reports from something like a recon drone is highly unlikely. And even if it were possible, the energy budget and the sheer mass of the hardware would almost certainly limit it to something the size of a starship."

There are several references scattered throughout textev that various enemies dismiss Manticoran capabilities because the couldn't possible have miniaturized them as much as reported.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:The general tech base Manticore has isn't ahead of what the League has - where you're taking that general tech base to include everything, not just military technology. What Manticore has is a hearty lead in taking theoretical possibilities and turning them into completed, deployed systems, and putting them together into well-designed units and well-considered and practiced tactics. Further behind the League/Manticore general tech base, Grayson and Haven have been working up similar skills.

You've definitely got a point about the general R&D that League member worlds have. Now whether any of them (or even any of the MAlign) had cut into the lead Manticore had on engineering R&D (as opposed to basic science) on the grav phenominon that give them microfusion power plants and small, high-bandwidth, FTL com links is an interesting question.

Chances are there are parties in the League - not close enough to the SLN's procurement sections, nor apparently penetrated by the Alignment - who are only months from getting into Manticoran-style microfusion plant technology. We could probably find a lot of engineering grad students at various League universities who could put them together, given a nice grant and time to build the tools and iron out details.

It's quite another thing to ask about how well those parties would hook up with any production pipelines or fleets with officers able to make heads or tails of applications. It's "just" the putting-things-together end on which Manticore has a powerful lead, and in some ways, Haven and Grayson have been cleverer that way, but haven't had the same approximately-Core-World-equivalent tech base Manticore has.

But even the SLN, as obsolete as it's ships have become, still has the occasional odd note of tech competence.

Looking something up recently due to another thread I (finally) noticed that Torch of Freedom showed that the SLN anti-ship missiles actually have better acceleration, by about 3.5% than any anti-ship missile Manticore or Haven have.


Sure because they're single drive missiles those Javelin's are out-classed by the ERMs, DDMs, and MDMs, deployed by the GA. But the basic 60/180 second drive node the League's missile provider is using is better than even the ones used in Manticoran DDMs/MDMs. Once the League figures out the "baffle" trick their missiles will be quicker (and therefore with a marginally better powered range) than current RMN Mk23s - and the "CM drive" on the Cataphract has the same extended 75 second run time as the very latest (post Sidemore) Manti CMs. Figure out how to apply that longer node life to the Javelin's drives and you've got an ERM that now (again marginally) out-ranges and out accelerates the ones carried by Wolfhounds, Avalons, and Sag-Bs.


Now that one spot of technical advantage doesn't make up for all the other problems with SLN missile combat (too few tubes; truely glacial cycle times on both offensive and defensive tubes; poor ECM programs, etc) But it was interesting to see one little (if currently meaningless) area where they outdid Manticore.

I think it helps that that's something in a platform (a missile) that is updated regularly, and all they have to worry about is fitting it into existing missile launchers. Refitting ships so that they're genuinely part of the laserhead generation (hey, it's only been 50 years that one's been out!) is too much bother for the SLN to have as a priority; better launchers, same thing. Electronic warfare - well, skill and software would be relatively cheap to update, but they simply haven't had the basis in challenging sims or combat to ground better skills or software, and there may be more hardware elements to it that they're not updating either.

The counter-missile drive on the Javelin is intriguing. I forget how much of that was desperate expedient to get some sort of multi-drive capability, but either way, it's got some potential. If the CM drive is markedly smaller than a full-up one, but sufficient for, say, terminal maneuvers after a medium-long ballistic phase, that does a very good job. It also suggests the possibility of dual-drive counter-missiles - combine that with Keyhole II or even Apollo Lite perhaps and you'd have a vastly longer CM engagement range. That would in turn be great for the far more powerful missile defenses everyone now needs, although it would also demand far larger CM magazines and probably larger CM tubes.

Weird Harold wrote:Adm Joseph Byng provided a somewhat more recent perspective on SLN FTL Research just before his demise in late 1921 PD:

He brushed that thought firmly aside. There'd be time enough to worry about it later; right now he needed to concentrate on the matter at hand, and he tried—really tried—to consider Mizawa's preposterous notion dispassionately. But no matter how hard he tried, it remained just that: preposterous.

R&D was beginning to experiment with the same FTL technology back home, and unlike many of his fellows, Byng had made it a point to follow at least the unclassified aspects of their efforts. According to them, just the power storage any grav-pulse installation would have required would have been impossible to fit into any drone-sized platform. And that completely ignored the fact that actually generating the pulse in the first place took the equivalent of an all-up impeller node, many times the size of any recon drone ever built!

"I appreciate the warning, Captain," he said after a few moments, choosing his words with some care as he spoke for the benefit of the flag bridge recorders, "but I strongly suspect that the reports about faster-than-light recon drone transmissions have . . . grown in the telling, let's say. As you may know, our own research people"—by which, of course, he meant Battle Fleet's researchers—"have been looking into this alleged capability of the Manties. Our own R and D indicates that it probably is possible, at least on the level of gross communication, but the sort of bandwidth which would be required for any useful reports from something like a recon drone is highly unlikely. And even if it were possible, the energy budget and the sheer mass of the hardware would almost certainly limit it to something the size of a starship."

There are several references scattered throughout textev that various enemies dismiss Manticoran capabilities because the couldn't possible have miniaturized them as much as reported.

I suspect that's an instance of ONI's output being more cheerleading than informative. What gets declassified, and/or posted out to the Fleet, represents the most optimistic picture that the people at ONI can believe, and at every stage, the junior officer reporting to the senior is normally editing things so as not to sound alarmist, rock the boat, or imply that anyone could be far ahead of the SLN or League R&D (as represented by the SLN). Mizawa was dealing with more direct data and wasn't softpedaling it all that much - which represented something far, far closer to reality than Byng was prepared to believe, or that ONI and Battle Fleet's R&D experts were reporting as realistic.

It also has the effect of preventing any such report from (1) providing the SLN officer corps any sense of urgency to catch up, and (2) leaving the R&D types hearing about it from being all that confident that these wonder devices actually could be built by them too.

JeffEngel wrote:I suspect that's an instance of ONI's output being more cheerleading than informative.

Adm Byng and his BF staff amply illustrate why the SLN is so institutionally stupid. The fate of Lt Askew after compiling a report for Capt Mizawa is yet one more example of those in charge of the SLN refusing to listen to anything that challenges their arrogant certainty of superiority.

Storm From The Shadows is just chock full of SLN POVs that show individual and institutional problems with R&D and Intelligence analysis.

Weird Harold wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I suspect that's an instance of ONI's output being more cheerleading than informative.

Adm Byng and his BF staff amply illustrate why the SLN is so institutionally stupid. The fate of Lt Askew after compiling a report for Capt Mizawa is yet one more example of those in charge of the SLN refusing to listen to anything that challenges their arrogant certainty of superiority.

Storm From The Shadows is just chock full of SLN POVs that show individual and institutional problems with R&D and Intelligence analysis.

The scariest bit of what you quoted, I have bolded below.

R&D was beginning to experiment with the same FTL technology back home, and unlike many of his fellows, Byng had made it a point to follow at least the unclassified aspects of their efforts. According to them, just the power storage any grav-pulse installation would have required would have been impossible to fit into any drone-sized platform. And that completely ignored the fact that actually generating the pulse in the first place took the equivalent of an all-up impeller node, many times the size of any recon drone ever built!

So even Byng may not be the worst the SLN has to offer. Of course, we've already met Sandra Crandall...

kzt wrote:

Zakharra wrote:So any new developments in ship development and tactics are going to be steered to being able to survive that kind of missile heavy battlefield.

The obvious tactic is to never go anywhere that you can't immediately escape to hyper. This means pushing forward advanced recon/guidance drones then using Apollo with long ballistic phases from the ships outside the hyperlimit.

That then means it will be a LOT harder to take a system that has a decent system defense force because even if the attackers can hyper out, they also lose control of every missile they launched. To fight, both sides are going to have to find a way to stand and take what they can dish out otherwise attackers can be driven off fairly easily with little to show for it (wasted missiles). It becomes a kind of hit and run siege warfare that could drag out attacks on a system for months if not years.

I believe our good friend Herlander is probably at Bolthole helping the GA puzzle through the secret of the streak. Therefore we will probably see GA streaks. In what role they will serve or how important they will be remains a matter of conjecture.

Don