Best use of the Agamemnons (BC(P))--and other Ships

SWM wrote:So, I am fairly confident that the small members of the Manticoran Alliance, with the approval of Manticore, quietly declared their neutrality.

SharkHunter wrote:Astrographically, I agree, but FF strategy wise I'm thinking, less so on neutrality. They've gone from "food for the PRN" bear to "weak systems with an amount of Haven Sector tech" that the MA and SLN / Yildun, etc. would desperately like to get their hands on.

So unless you are proposing that Manticore strip those systems of any current tech, which Manticore would never demand anyway, now what? If I were the Caliphate, for example, I'd be asking for whatever big mobile pod-launching ship that the GA will let me keep on station, at least until the system missile defense supply is online again.

SWM, Johnathan S, I think I am with Sharkhunter on this. Oh, I agree that most of the original Anti-Haven Alliance will be sitting on the sideline for this one, but the question is, will the ISLN know? Or even care?

I mean, raiding places like, oh, say, Grayson may strike the commander of a FF Battlecruise Squadron as a bad idea, but raiding a place like Casca (which is, after all, just another bunch of neobarbs anyway) may seem like a less-risky proposition. And their claims of neutrality? Twaddle! I see that Manty freighter in orbit, you obviously are siding with those who would destroy the SL way of life!!

And Manticore would be hard-pressed not to respond--yes, they are neutrals, and yes, they didn't contribute all that much (per textev at least) to the defeat of Haven, but they are neighbors and trading partners and presumably friends, and the pressure not to desert friends will be heavy.

That said, splitting up the Grand Fleet to protect every system strikes me as being a losing proposition for the GA....but it is what Kingsford is hoping to achieve.

It will be interesting to see how the MWW handles this.

Added note: One place that will have to be defended is Idaho, both as a member of the original allance and the possessor of a wormhole bridge. I could see the Battle of Idaho occurring (the SL, of course, will be mashed... )

Hi Hutch,

You are making some valid points here. But the Solly BCs will be a looong way from home without any support. Do you think they will raid that far afield?

Still the Alliance would have to do something about it. I wodet if it could be prempted by the same sort of defenses tha Manticore is using in the quadrant...

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Hutch, You are making some valid points here. But the Solly BCs will be a looong way from home without any support. Do you think they will raid that far afield?

Still the Alliance would have to do something about it. I wonder if it could be pre-empted by the same sort of defenses tha Manticore is using in the quadrant...Don

[corrections mine]
I think once missile production goes back online, yes, but boy, it's interesting to think about "in the mean time". I'm thinking more along the lines of the CLAC/Ammo ship/ BC-whatever in the meantime, with the BC-whatevers being rotated in and out. For example, some of the systems could be used as minor "work/re-work up areas" from the Hancock repair base, before the BC- is moved to a more active location.

Hutch wrote:SWM, Johnathan S, I think I am with Sharkhunter on this. Oh, I agree that most of the original Anti-Haven Alliance will be sitting on the sideline for this one, but the question is, will the ISLN know? Or even care?

I mean, raiding places like, oh, say, Grayson may strike the commander of a FF Battlecruise Squadron as a bad idea, but raiding a place like Casca (which is, after all, just another bunch of neobarbs anyway) may seem like a less-risky proposition. And their claims of neutrality? Twaddle! I see that Manty freighter in orbit, you obviously are siding with those who would destroy the SL way of life!!

And Manticore would be hard-pressed not to respond--yes, they are neutrals, and yes, they didn't contribute all that much (per textev at least) to the defeat of Haven, but they are neighbors and trading partners and presumably friends, and the pressure not to desert friends will be heavy.

That said, splitting up the Grand Fleet to protect every system strikes me as being a losing proposition for the GA....but it is what Kingsford is hoping to achieve.

It will be interesting to see how the MWW handles this.

Added note: One place that will have to be defended is Idaho, both as a member of the original allance and the possessor of a wormhole bridge. I could see the Battle of Idaho occurring (the SL, of course, will be mashed... )

Well unless Manticore took back the system defense installations that were there during the 2nd war I'd say that the neutral system would be asking for additional protection only after they were forced to pointedly demonstrate how overmatched any plausible SLN raiding force was.

After all the defenses at Zanzibar (hardly the most critical system - but the one we got the best look at) probably could have killed at least the majority of Filerata's "Raging Justice".


But how the fleet handles added responsibility if the League does refuse to recognize those systems neutrality will be interesting. But if nothing else pod based defesnses built by Haven should be available and capable of handling most plausible raiders - without major diversion of mobile units. Those previously allied systems can presumably be trusted not to leak the tech specs or hardware samples (unlike any new systems the GA ends up responsible to defend)

So Sharkhunter and Hutch--you are suggesting that the League has decided that, since it is already jumping into an undeclared war with Manticore, no one in the galaxy will notice or complain if the League also starts invading neutral nations while they're at it? The League doesn't care what their own people will think of this, let alone the rest of the galaxy?

SWM wrote:So Sharkhunter and Hutch--you are suggesting that the League has decided that, since it is already jumping into an undeclared war with Manticore, no one in the galaxy will notice or complain if the League also starts invading neutral nations while they're at it? The League doesn't care what their own people will think of this, let alone the rest of the galaxy?

Not so much he League as the Mandarins - who have already demonstrated that they don't much care what other people think. They probably will attempt to sell it as a counter attack on the Manticore heretics (oops wrong series) an its allies - regardless of the fact that they aren't allies any more. It's not like they've never told a lie or anything like that.

SWM wrote:So Sharkhunter and Hutch--you are suggesting that the League has decided that, since it is already jumping into an undeclared war with Manticore, no one in the galaxy will notice or complain if the League also starts invading neutral nations while they're at it? The League doesn't care what their own people will think of this, let alone the rest of the galaxy?

What disinterested 3rd party is going to complain about what the SL is doing and who are they going to complain to? Haven is the 2nd largest polity in the Honorverse and Manticore (now) has to be in the top 10 if not top 5 largest polities - yet the SL doesn't care what they think or gives 2 cents about their sovereign rights.

Slapping neutral nations will be seen as collateral damage in the quest to smack down Manticore. All the much better if they can show them to the rest of the verge "powers" as examples of what happens when you get in the SL's way.

Apparently, a lot of you think the League, or perhaps just the Mandarins, are a lot more insane than I do. They aren't insane. They have no reason to attack neutrals. It won't help them in the fight against Manticore, it won't weaken Manticore, it will waste their own forces, it will make all of their own trading partners (who are also neutral) extremely nervous, and it will anger their own constituents. Using the war with Manticore as an excuse to invade neutral star nations on the far side of Manticore is tantamount to declaring to the galaxy at large and their own member systems that the League has decided on military conquest of the galaxy.

SWM wrote:Apparently, a lot of you think the League, or perhaps just the Mandarins, are a lot more insane than I do. They aren't insane. They have no reason to attack neutrals. It won't help them in the fight against Manticore, it won't weaken Manticore, it will waste their own forces, it will make all of their own trading partners (who are also neutral) extremely nervous, and it will anger their own constituents. Using the war with Manticore as an excuse to invade neutral star nations on the far side of Manticore is tantamount to declaring to the galaxy at large and their own member systems that the League has decided on military conquest of the galaxy.

No, we're arguing that Zanzibar isn't going to jump ship from a polity that has for the most part treated them fairly and spilled blood in their defense. Solarian League wise...

Why "golly gee whiz, all of a sudden FF got uppity and started invading systems", me the man in the street and all of these planets object!! Except one minor detail. They've been doing it in collusion with the OFS for centuries, and Manticore controls a big chunk of the only high speed way for anyone to find out -- the wormholes. So most of the SL will never find out if FF tries to whack an alliance partner.

But here's the Mandarin's spin: "We weren't invading Zanzibar, we were pursuing those dastardly Manticorans who killed off 2 million of our noble innocent crews for no good reason. It's not OUR fault that the RMN is defending some one else's star system! Oh, and once we take over, we can make that system an OFS protectorate no longer bullied by those danged imperialistic neobarbs".

SharkHunter wrote:

SWM wrote:Apparently, a lot of you think the League, or perhaps just the Mandarins, are a lot more insane than I do. They aren't insane. They have no reason to attack neutrals. It won't help them in the fight against Manticore, it won't weaken Manticore, it will waste their own forces, it will make all of their own trading partners (who are also neutral) extremely nervous, and it will anger their own constituents. Using the war with Manticore as an excuse to invade neutral star nations on the far side of Manticore is tantamount to declaring to the galaxy at large and their own member systems that the League has decided on military conquest of the galaxy.

No, we're arguing that Zanzibar isn't going to jump ship from a polity that has for the most part treated them fairly and spilled blood in their defense. Solarian League wise...

Why "golly gee whiz, all of a sudden FF got uppity and started invading systems", me the man in the street and all of these planets object!! Except one minor detail. They've been doing it in collusion with the OFS for centuries, and Manticore controls a big chunk of the only high speed way for anyone to find out -- the wormholes. So most of the SL will never find out if FF tries to whack an alliance partner.

But here's the Mandarin's spin: "We weren't invading Zanzibar, we were pursuing those dastardly Manticorans who killed off 2 million of our noble innocent crews for no good reason. It's not OUR fault that the RMN is defending some one else's star system! Oh, and once we take over, we can make that system an OFS protectorate no longer bullied by those danged imperialistic neobarbs".

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Zanzibar or the others would jump ship. I'm saying that the Manticoran Alliance was very specifically an alliance against the Republic of Haven. The Manticoran Alliance no longer exists. I say that Manticore herself would suggest that these small allies should stay neutral in the current war with the Solarian League.

The League cannot claim that they are merely chasing the Manticorans into Zanzibar if the Manticorans aren't defending Zanzibar. That's my whole point. If the small systems are neutral in this war, they don't need to be defended, and there is no reason for the League to touch them.

Sure, the League has been using the OFS to infiltrate and take over sections of the Verge. But they have never simply invaded a system without pretext. If these systems are neutral, there is no pretext. Nothing for the League to hide behind.