Best use of the Agamemnons (BC(P))--and other Ships

Weird Harold wrote:It would not surprise me in the least to see at least one FF Task Group (looking for an easy victory) hammered to scrap by a former member of the Manticoran Alliance.

I would not be surprised. I would, however, be cavorting about it gleeful amusement.

All hail mighty Alizon, proud conqueror of the Solarian League Navy! Remember long this day, sons and daughters of glorious Poicters, when the tyranny of Sol broke upon your brave defense!

How about just attaching an Agamemnon for every Sag C and Roland deployed in a Squadron. 3rd ship as is would add all the Mk16 or Mk23 pods they would need. And include a Company of Marines.

It is almost as fast as a Sag C 95.5% and wouldn't slow any of the ships down by towing pods. It could also carry reloads and a huge load of Ghost Rider Platforms. Two Agamemnon added to 2 Saganami C and 2 Roland would give a 6 Ship Squadron with the Marines these ships lack and 720 Pods. It would have more armour than either and increase their Defensive capabilities. CM 50% and PD 30%+ Plus mounts more powerful and 40% more Grasers than a Sag C.

And you don't have to build them because you already have them.

Lord Skimper wrote:How about just attaching an Agamemnon for every Sag C and Roland deployed in a Squadron. 3rd ship as is would add all the Mk16 or Mk23 pods they would need. And include a Company of Marines.

It is almost as fast as a Sag C 95.5% and wouldn't slow any of the ships down by towing pods. It could also carry reloads and a huge load of Ghost Rider Platforms. Two Agamemnon added to 2 Saganami C and 2 Roland would give a 6 Ship Squadron with the Marines these ships lack and 720 Pods. It would have more armour than either and increase their Defensive capabilities. CM 50% and PD 30%+ Plus mounts more powerful and 40% more Grasers than a Sag C.

And you don't have to build them because you already have them.

Might even consider this a reasonable suggestion, except for the source.

Lord Skimper wrote:How about just attaching an Agamemnon for every Sag C and Roland deployed in a Squadron. 3rd ship as is would add all the Mk16 or Mk23 pods they would need. And include a Company of Marines.

It is almost as fast as a Sag C 95.5% and wouldn't slow any of the ships down by towing pods. It could also carry reloads and a huge load of Ghost Rider Platforms. Two Agamemnon added to 2 Saganami C and 2 Roland would give a 6 Ship Squadron with the Marines these ships lack and 720 Pods. It would have more armour than either and increase their Defensive capabilities. CM 50% and PD 30%+ Plus mounts more powerful and 40% more Grasers than a Sag C.

And you don't have to build them because you already have them.

I would agree, thinking this to be a great tactical setup, using the Agamemmnon primarily in a "flanking" position from stealth. The combined missile loadout of the two ships at 250 missiles per SD means that they'd have a good shot at knocking out at least the equivalent of 40 SDs, and I'd wager that tactics would develop to raise that total even higher.

Turning from one ship then always exposes the throat or kilt of the wedge towards the other, with no real great defensive positions possible other than running like hell, and sorry -- no space navy in the Honorverse is gonna outrun an RMN missile storm in N-space very easily. Gotta survive first.

SWM wrote:Apparently, a lot of you think the League, or perhaps just the Mandarins, are a lot more insane than I do. They aren't insane. They have no reason to attack neutrals. It won't help them in the fight against Manticore, it won't weaken Manticore, it will waste their own forces, it will make all of their own trading partners (who are also neutral) extremely nervous, and it will anger their own constituents. Using the war with Manticore as an excuse to invade neutral star nations on the far side of Manticore is tantamount to declaring to the galaxy at large and their own member systems that the League has decided on military conquest of the galaxy.

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Above bolding mine

The SL 's trading "partners" and "allies" are likely already nervous as the details of "Case Buccaneer" and the other SLN FF contingency plans are quietly released and promulgated in the Verge.
I don't see the hard-core (or manipulated) SLN (BF or FF) being concerned about whether the smaller systems have declared neutrality.
Their response will be "I'm sorry, we did not get that notice. We'll "help" you re-establish a stable government"

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:

SWM wrote:Apparently, a lot of you think the League, or perhaps just the Mandarins, are a lot more insane than I do. They aren't insane. They have no reason to attack neutrals. It won't help them in the fight against Manticore, it won't weaken Manticore, it will waste their own forces, it will make all of their own trading partners (who are also neutral) extremely nervous, and it will anger their own constituents. Using the war with Manticore as an excuse to invade neutral star nations on the far side of Manticore is tantamount to declaring to the galaxy at large and their own member systems that the League has decided on military conquest of the galaxy.

--------------
Above bolding mine

The SL 's trading "partners" and "allies" are likely already nervous as the details of "Case Buccaneer" and the other SLN FF contingency plans are quietly released and promulgated in the Verge.
I don't see the hard-core (or manipulated) SLN (BF or FF) being concerned about whether the smaller systems have declared neutrality.
Their response will be "I'm sorry, we did not get that notice. We'll "help" you re-establish a stable government"

-- Stewart

Note the declaration to their own member systems that the League's turned into a blatant imperialist monster there. It's been an imperialist monster for a long time, granted, but not a blatant one - OFS's moves have been covered under adequate pretexts against League apathy. But now, League apathy is not longer something the Mandarins can rely on, and OFS's moves are subject to more scrutiny.

At the very same time, the League's government needs cash, and its source of cash is trade duties, not taxation. They need trade awfully. Jeopardizing it is not acceptable. For more trade, and for news of victories, attacks to reclaim the wormholes are too compelling and they can be carried out more quickly. They can also be carried out against small RMN forces, without the very nastiest missiles, and sometimes where the SLN can spend a shorter time, if any, outside their own missile and energy range.

Note though that this would not apply to SLN/OFS planners who are working for the Alignment - they're effectively traitors working against the interests of their own government. The more they can mess up the League, the better.

The release of the Case Buccaneer and probably other contingency plans of FF are probably going to cause a revision of thinking on the parts of a large number of systems, at least in the Verge and outward. One possible outcome is systems 1) improving their SDFs, 2) getting into conversations with neighbors to talk about mutual defense and 3) some of the governments making initals contacts with an especially friendly (to them) local FF commanding officer about making local defense a priority.

This will start the process of formation of incipient successor states from fragments of the SL. It also will have the potential to jump-start thinking and options for some of the FF commanders to go warlord, mercenary or partner with a system as a lifeboat against what is starting. They may be FF but at some point they are going to need a place to resupply, repair and refuge.

They have two initial choices when the wheels come off. The first is to continue to follow orders from their command at SL. They may not be able to get any and they are mostly used to operating on the orders of local Govenors. That can quickly lead to them becomming pockets of FF (SLN remnants) who survive only when they don't activly seek engagement with GA forces. So what do they do, particularly if they a in a working agreement with the local system government? Depends on the system. It also depends on how fast the SL shatters. If it is very fast, (and the FF forces aren't thrown away first) they become the core of some manner of SDF and hold an "island of civilization". Unless they are agressive in trying to take over neighbors, the GA will probably agree (mostly by not smashing them) to let them become the local peace keepers and deal with any local problems like more "independent" former SLN ships going pirate/warlord or neighbors making trouble.

Brigade XO wrote:The release of the Case Buccaneer and probably other contingency plans of FF are probably going to cause a revision of thinking on the parts of a large number of systems, at least in the Verge and outward. One possible outcome is systems 1) improving their SDFs, 2) getting into conversations with neighbors to talk about mutual defense and 3) some of the governments making initals contacts with an especially friendly (to them) local FF commanding officer about making local defense a priority.

This will start the process of formation of incipient successor states from fragments of the SL. It also will have the potential to jump-start thinking and options for some of the FF commanders to go warlord, mercenary or partner with a system as a lifeboat against what is starting. They may be FF but at some point they are going to need a place to resupply, repair and refuge.

They have two initial choices when the wheels come off. The first is to continue to follow orders from their command at SL. They may not be able to get any and they are mostly used to operating on the orders of local Govenors. That can quickly lead to them becomming pockets of FF (SLN remnants) who survive only when they don't activly seek engagement with GA forces. So what do they do, particularly if they a in a working agreement with the local system government? Depends on the system. It also depends on how fast the SL shatters. If it is very fast, (and the FF forces aren't thrown away first) they become the core of some manner of SDF and hold an "island of civilization". Unless they are agressive in trying to take over neighbors, the GA will probably agree (mostly by not smashing them) to let them become the local peace keepers and deal with any local problems like more "independent" former SLN ships going pirate/warlord or neighbors making trouble.

"Sort yourselves into good guys and bad guys. We're watching."

Sounds right, and tracks what happened with far-flung legions as Rome withdrew, too. I imagine some brighter FF sorts will resist orders to be flung at RMN forces. Smarter OFS governors will in effect be catching up with Barregos; combine the two, and it's more Maya Sectors.

In some ways, the Verge may be better off than the Core: the OFS sectors represent political structures of a viable size with the traces of a nascent national identity. The chief problem is that, for most of them, it's an unwilling association under an unloved regime. Maya Sector is an exception, thanks immediately to Barregos being an exception. Meyers is enjoying unified Manticoran liberation and some maybe patronage being reconstituted as a multistellar entity. Other OFS sectors may need governors who see which way the wind is blowing and become "Barregos-in-a-hurry" to become heroes of the new regime instead of the hated symbols of the old one. Or they may try their hands at being independent dictators instead of disguised dictators on behalf of the League. (Telling the two sorts apart is left as an exercise for concerned parties - poor schmucks.)

If OFS sectors cut across old, existing multistellar national identities - like post-colonial borders following the world wars here - then you're likely to see the same sorts of bloody messes we have.

Lord Skimper wrote:How about just attaching an Agamemnon for every Sag C and Roland deployed in a Squadron. 3rd ship as is would add all the Mk16 or Mk23 pods they would need. And include a Company of Marines.

It is almost as fast as a Sag C 95.5% and wouldn't slow any of the ships down by towing pods. It could also carry reloads and a huge load of Ghost Rider Platforms. Two Agamemnon added to 2 Saganami C and 2 Roland would give a 6 Ship Squadron with the Marines these ships lack and 720 Pods. It would have more armour than either and increase their Defensive capabilities. CM 50% and PD 30%+ Plus mounts more powerful and 40% more Grasers than a Sag C.

And you don't have to build them because you already have them.

I read this a bit fast--but if you deploy an Agammemnon with every Sag-C and Roland in a squadron, then you end up needing a lot more Aggies. I think you meant to deploy one Aggie with each Sag-C or Roland squadron; that gives you the firepower I think you are after.

the real question is, why do you need it on top of a Sag-C squadron? For a short action, in defense, the cruisers will make mincemeat of attackers using pods; in an extended raid situation, they take an ammunition ship, and load up external pods before they attack. Dropping down to n-space to load the pods on, wouldn't make any strategic or tactical difference at interstellar distances.

And it isn't like the Sollies are in any shape to complain about the attackers delaying out there beyond the hyperlimit while they load up.

Rob

JeffEngel wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:The release of the Case Buccaneer and probably other contingency plans of FF are probably going to cause a revision of thinking on the parts of a large number of systems, at least in the Verge and outward. One possible outcome is systems 1) improving their SDFs, 2) getting into conversations with neighbors to talk about mutual defense and 3) some of the governments making initals contacts with an especially friendly (to them) local FF commanding officer about making local defense a priority.

This will start the process of formation of incipient successor states from fragments of the SL. It also will have the potential to jump-start thinking and options for some of the FF commanders to go warlord, mercenary or partner with a system as a lifeboat against what is starting. They may be FF but at some point they are going to need a place to resupply, repair and refuge.

They have two initial choices when the wheels come off. The first is to continue to follow orders from their command at SL. They may not be able to get any and they are mostly used to operating on the orders of local Govenors. That can quickly lead to them becomming pockets of FF (SLN remnants) who survive only when they don't activly seek engagement with GA forces. So what do they do, particularly if they a in a working agreement with the local system government? Depends on the system. It also depends on how fast the SL shatters. If it is very fast, (and the FF forces aren't thrown away first) they become the core of some manner of SDF and hold an "island of civilization". Unless they are agressive in trying to take over neighbors, the GA will probably agree (mostly by not smashing them) to let them become the local peace keepers and deal with any local problems like more "independent" former SLN ships going pirate/warlord or neighbors making trouble.

"Sort yourselves into good guys and bad guys. We're watching."

Sounds right, and tracks what happened with far-flung legions as Rome withdrew, too. I imagine some brighter FF sorts will resist orders to be flung at RMN forces. Smarter OFS governors will in effect be catching up with Barregos; combine the two, and it's more Maya Sectors.

In some ways, the Verge may be better off than the Core: the OFS sectors represent political structures of a viable size with the traces of a nascent national identity. The chief problem is that, for most of them, it's an unwilling association under an unloved regime. Maya Sector is an exception, thanks immediately to Barregos being an exception. Meyers is enjoying unified Manticoran liberation and some maybe patronage being reconstituted as a multistellar entity. Other OFS sectors may need governors who see which way the wind is blowing and become "Barregos-in-a-hurry" to become heroes of the new regime instead of the hated symbols of the old one. Or they may try their hands at being independent dictators instead of disguised dictators on behalf of the League. (Telling the two sorts apart is left as an exercise for concerned parties - poor schmucks.)

If OFS sectors cut across old, existing multistellar national identities - like post-colonial borders following the world wars here - then you're likely to see the same sorts of bloody messes we have.

Actually, this may in fact be one the reactions that the MAlign is waiting for, as it will make the formation of the RF seem to be just a part of the ongoing dissolution of the SL, and one that is not likely to attract the GA's attention, as they will only be accepting voluntary enlistment in the RF, no conquering warlords here.